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A woman attempted suicide because of Win Butler’s sexual harassment. (self.arcadefire)

submitted by Scarepwn2

I see a lot of people on this subreddit today talking about the uncertainties of the Pitchfork article. They say it’s “he said, she said”. They say he provided screenshots of messages.

I want to summarize, for those who might have skimmed or not read the article, the mass amounts of evidence and the approach Pitchfork took to writing this article.

  • 5 people come forward with accusations of sexual harassment
  • They all provided screenshots of DM’s and texts
  • Pitchfork interviewed their friends and family
  • Some of those friends and family were there on these “dates” and saw the inappropriate behavior
  • A music journalist quit their job because of Win’s sexual assault
  • One of the women tried to kill herself because of Win’s constant sexual harassment
  • None of these people knew each other before coming forward
  • Many more women stepped forward who had sexual relationships with Win and said that while it was consensual, they didn’t feel like they could say no.

Win did this stuff. Straight up. He is an adult in his thirties. He has no excuse for this kind of behavior. It doesn’t matter if he misread a situation, that is not a good enough excuse for this behavior.

Some other things to consider…

  • All of Win’s responses are going through a crisis PR person who’s entire job is to make people like you feel ultimately ok with the situation
  • Win told Pitchfork that he would put them into contact with past sexual relationships, which is just weird?? I guess this was supposed to be an opportunity for “good references” but that is just a real fucking weird thing to offer.

I get that this is hard. Their music meant so much to so many of us.

But this is disgusting.

If you “don’t know who to believe” ask yourself, what on Earth do these people have to gain? Arcade Fire was one of their favorite bands, just like us. They went to multiple concerts, they had tattoos, they flew to other cities for events.

They quit their jobs, they attempted suicide.

Why would they do this? For clout? These anonymous people are just trying to make a name for themselves? Of course not.

The evidence is overwhelmingly on the side of the women.

This is not He Said, She Said.

This is PR Person Said, She Said, She Said, She Said, They Said, Pitchfork Diligently Reported.

Edit: Fixed gendering mistake

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[–]capacitorfluxing 76 points77 points  (34 children)

A quicker summation is that the evidence is pretty strong that Win was straight up trolling fans for sex in extremely embarrassing and pathetic ways. I don’t understand what’s so hard about this if that is your intention as a famous person. Like, the idea of sort of sidling up to someone who thinks your music is next to godliness and thinking that person is just in it for a quick one night stand is so fucked up and beyond comprehension to me, I just don’t know how you can’t see it. Like, if he went to people and said hey, this is nothing more than a hook up, you interested? No harm no foul. But instead, he does this whole emotional play, and with people he’s going to have to actually develop a relationship with in order to get to the hook up, and then he’s surprised that it all goes totally sideways and bat shit wrong?

As other people have pointed out, it’s impossible to prove exactly which stories were full on evil villain assault stories, and which ones are being exaggerated by those who feel jilted by a rock God who was finally paying attention to them. But honestly, it doesn’t matter? How can you possibly feel cool about this guy and excuse his behavior? There is definitely a way of going about an open marriage and even having casual sex with fans, and this decidedly was not the way to do it.

[–]raysofgold 33 points34 points  (21 children)

that's the thing. it doesn't have to be that hard, he doesn't have to go to such specific measures.

so there's clearly a necessity within his pathology to privately isolate the person, build up a rapport knowing how overwhelmedly psyched they're going to be by him randomly contacting them--all behind the safety and comfort of a screen, everything going at his pace, with him setting the perimeters.

it's about control. the hunting, the scoping them out online, the pretenses of anything other than 'this is purely a hookup thing.'

like, this motherfucker knew full well that contacting these people in this way would guarantee that they would foremost, before anything else, express untold and profound adoration for his (and his wife and his bandmates' art), and that they would be immensely swayed by their preexisting parasocial conception of him(which, as we know, and are seeing here, was probably even more lofty than it typically would be for someone of his ilk and era in the industry).

and yet, he tells us that he was 'weirded out,' maybe even into a brief and apparently not very useful moment of clarity, when he found an AF tattoo on one of their bodies. there could be some industrial-grade cognitive dissonance in there, sure, but to me, the power he had over these people, due to the band and then, henceforth, from him emotionally manipulating them in various ways over the course of their relationships was not just an ugly byproduct of the circumstance, but for him and what was satisfying, precisely the point of the circumstance--that was the circumstance itself. Dude wasn't simply trying to get laid and this was the easiest way; he was trying to control and abuse people and got off on it.

Edit: typo and phrasing

[–]Excellent_Homework24 22 points23 points  (20 children)

This. There’s so many more women out there too. The talk in New Orleans is all about him trolling college parties. He scams on bills and doesn’t tip at restaurants too. It’s all of a piece — he’s a gross narcissist who thinks everything revolves him and his feelings.

[–]raysofgold 11 points12 points  (17 children)

and that last comment is entirely consistent with what it's seemed like for a long time. asking fans who attended multiple shows on a tour to stop being upfront because they wanted to see different people upfront(something that's reportedly continued to this era), him throwing fans' cellphones at shows because internet bad, showing up late and being a dick at DJ shows(according to past stories on here and elsewhere), and so on and so on.

honestly, I first got very off vibes even at that little telltale moment in the Blogotheque vid of Neon Bible in the elevator where someone at the venue starts to get in the elevator with them (not suspecting that a band, you know, is filming a performance in the fucking freight elevator), and him going "can you get out? can you get out, please? we need the space in the elevator," and then literally shooing the person away. and okay sure, just some minor rudeness(and hey, he did say please!) not indicative that the person is a monster (really it's the shooing for me that's giving very gross vibes), but looking back as someone who's been a fan since Neon Bible, it rubbed me the wrong way, and with people...the cliche oft applies that how they treat strangers, especially in a moment of stressful circumstance reveals some potentially integral things about that person.

I only mention it because it always stuck with me over the years (and rewatching and listening to that performance ripped onto my ipod), and so for me now feels like the first apparent link in a pattern of increasingly brazen narcissistic entitlement regarding himself and the band.

more to the point though, the other examples I mention point to a sense of profoundly hubristic and toxic entitlement over the fans(and seeing the fans in a notably dehumanized manner), all of which really paints in some of the larger context for what we now know.

[–]Excellent_Homework24 7 points8 points  (3 children)

Omg. I did not know these things! So vile. The hoax about fans having to dress up for a concert a while back —and then blaming us for taking it seriously … that was also gross.
DMing young fans is just so awful. It’s not like he’s meeting women (maybe even women nearing 30 omg!) at parties and then getting it on. He’s literally scouring fan accounts and sending dick pics. Total predator behaviour.

[–]provisionings 1 point2 points  (10 children)

I am not a part of this subreddit but I do acknowledge Arcade Fire as being a very good band.. however at lollapalooza way back in 2005.. no one could stop talking about how stuck up the band was.. and I remember this specifically. They were not nice to other bands AT ALL. They appeared to be a very pretentious group… I chalked it up to possibly being French Canadian. I had been to Montreal several times before 2005, and being an English speaking American at the time would often render dirty looks and even shitty service in a restaurant. I’m not trying to say that folks from Montreal are rude… all I’m saying is that at the time, it was mostly a French speaking city and I can only assume folks that lived in Montreal preferred it that way.

[–]Specialist_Pilot_558 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Lot's of douches in Canada. Liberal elitists

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    [–]kingmayo 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    I disagree, in stressful situations you need to give persons the benefit of the doubt, it’s whether he apologized after the cameras were off is what counts

    [–][deleted]  (1 child)

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      [–]Excellent_Homework24 6 points7 points  (0 children)

      I live nearby. I love NOLA. I have heard these tales and it’s sickening. NOLA is a beautiful place with wondrous musicians & I hate how he thinks he can just squirm in there and join parades and just ugh. There’s so much generosity in NOLA and he’s taken advantage of it. I hate it.

      [–]Scarepwn[S] 28 points29 points  (0 children)

      This is a good explanation of the power dynamics at play. We all have a parasocial relationship with Win. Through his music and concerts and art and interviews we feel like we know him and that he’s almost our friend.

      His voice helped us through hard times or celebrated good times. We had wonderful moments of community and connection at his concerts.

      He then took that influence and used it to send unsolicited dick pics to people without consequence.

      [–]curlycake 18 points19 points  (3 children)

      right? like pick people within 10 years of your age to begin with.

      [–][deleted]  (2 children)

      [deleted]

        [–]curlycake 0 points1 point  (1 child)

        it’s an issue if the fan base is creeped out.

        [–]Odd_Profession_2902 2 points3 points  (6 children)

        I realize that Win is probably a bit creepy but I don’t think he’s a terrible person. He’s attracted to younger (legal age) girls and seeks them out hence the creep factor but I don’t think he’s a psychopath who’s in it to hurt people. I don’t hold a moral higher standard for famous people and artists I enjoy.

        I will continue to listen to arcade fire. His lyricism is poetic, melancholic, romantic, warm, and inspiring. I don’t think this is a fake side of him.

        [–]capacitorfluxing 8 points9 points  (5 children)

        Win is seeking out girls who want to fuck him because they like his art. Anything wrong with that? I think we can both agree that it alllllll depends on how you go about it. Right?

        Can we both also agree that the approach of feigning a close/emotional relationship in order to get a blowjob is pretty pathetic and lame, if that relationship was indeed solely for the sake of facilitating access to blowjobs? Like, why not just ask for the blowjob and be done with it? Because the girl would prob say no without that feigned relationship, right?

        To me, all of this is super embarrassing and pathetic. This isn't a higher moral standard for me, it's the same if I found out, like, a friend who was a professor was using it to sleep with 18 year old fawning college students of his. Who you are isn't how you behave with your friends at the restaurant, it's also how you treat the waiter at the restaurant, and everyone else in your life.

        Finally -- shitty, embarrassing, pathetic, dopey, and hurtful people are often capable of making beautiful art. There's this one artist, Tom Otterness, who makes the most delightful bronze statues of whimsical people doing whimsical things. They're found all over the world in public installations. Look him up on Google, I love his stuff. Also, when he was an art student, he did a piece where he got a dog from the pound, turned on a video camera, and filmed himself shooting the dog point blank in the head.

        It's your call if Win crosses that line with you. It's your call if Tom crosses that line with you. But there's a suggestion here that other people shouldn't have an issue with either here, and that to do so is some kind of hypocrisy or something.

        If you can still go to Arcade Fire concerts and watch Win sing his heart out about deeply felt emotional topics, that's your call to make. Me, I'll be staring at him on stage singing those lyrics, and then imagining him sidling up to the fawning fan at a bar using her love of those lyrics to get a quick handjob in the bathroom. Each to their own.

        [–]Lost_Found84 2 points3 points  (0 children)

        I agree that it’s a personal decision that each person has to make on their own and I’m not a fan of guilt tripping either way.

        The one thing I’d take issue with is… is it really that unusual or manipulative to have a friends with benefits situation? Maybe I need to be refreshed on the details, but none of the relationships sounded closer than just “friends who f”. I’m not sure who he told he was in an open marriage with (and to be honest, the level of apologizing and forgiving that he and Régine do in their statements has me believing that their marriage is not consensually open at all), but I really don’t see where the idea could have been plausible that he was “falling” for any of these girls. He’s married and he only sees them when he comes by while touring. Doesn’t excuse any abuse or harassment of course, but these were some of the most obvious “fbuddy” relationships I’ve ever seen.

        “Trust me, I’m gonna leave my wife”, is what someone says when they’re emotionally stringing you along. Not, “I’m never gonna leave her, but see you in 8 months when I’m back in town.” The nature of these relationships seemed pretty up front to me.

        [–]Odd_Profession_2902 1 point2 points  (1 child)

        Yeah I totally get where you’re coming from. And I totally get how it can turn many people off from their music.

        I wouldn’t wanna support serial killers or rapists. But I may still support talented deeply flawed individuals who use lame tactics to get into girls’ pants. Guys do this all the time- and it’s lame. And Win is just one of those lame dudes. But Win isn’t just lame. He’s also very soulful and appreciates warmth/nostalgia/intricate beauty of life. And his music enriches my life. I think the positive impact he makes in the world far outweighs the toxicity from his actions.

        I’ll listen to arcade fire knowing that the lead singer is a deeply flawed individual like many of us. Also I can’t help but feel that guys who cheat are in some ways worse than what he did.

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          [–]SideShowJT 112 points113 points  (3 children)

          Oh fuck me... The frontman of my favorite band is a fucking creep.

          "Butler never asked her age, she says. In his statement, Butler responds: “I googled her and knew that she was 18.”

          Win, my dude. That's so creepy and gross. What a loser.

          [–]nclsrfn 9 points10 points  (0 children)

          It's also so dumb, it's like a black comedy joke, what the fuck Win.

          [–]mypatronusislasagna 5 points6 points  (0 children)

          If you have to check Google for the legality of something beforehand maybe get your priorities in order?

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            [–]bibi_da_god 57 points58 points  (2 children)

            "Lookout kid" indeed

            [–]jjazznola 5 points6 points  (0 children)

            Haha. Good one!

            [–]dgofo 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            Lookout kid. Trust your body. You can dance, and you can shake. Things will break, you make mistakes. You loose your friends again and again. Cause nothing ever perfect. No one’s perfect. Let me say it again, no one’s perfect.

            Huh, no one’s perfect…

            [–][deleted] 39 points40 points  (0 children)

            I got a refund for my hotel after giving them the reason I wasn't going to the gig anymore. AF should give refunds for the tickets. The shine is gone from them, we won't enjoy the gigs now.

            The women's testimonies really stayed with me after reading. When I was their age, I remember predatory men in positions of power and the way they behaved. I'm glad the world doesn't just accept this behaviour anymore, and that they were able to come forward and had support from the vast, vast majority (except a select few creeps).

            Win needs to cop the fuck on if he thinks his apology and mass revisionism is acceptable at this point.

            [–]stillinthesimulation 126 points127 points  (2 children)

            When your side of the story includes things like “my wife just had a miscarriage,” and “I googled her to make sure she was 18,” you know you fucked up.

            [–]jatemple 26 points27 points  (0 children)

            Yeahhhh that "Googled to see she was 18" thing was f'd.

            [–]bloopbleepblorperz 5 points6 points  (0 children)

            I felt sickened by the way he said “our family had a miscarriage”. appreciating that yes of course a miscarriage is a family tragedy but ultimately, no, Régine had a miscarriage…and then you used that as an excuse to cheat on her !??! slash maybe it wasn’t cheating cause they were open but idk it’s all just BLAH.

            [–]Medical_Print7896 58 points59 points  (12 children)

            Did Will quit the band cuz he saw this coming down the pipeline? Trying to distance himself from the band and and possibly salvage his own career?

            I don’t know. I am very sad about this

            [–]petra_vonkant 32 points33 points  (0 children)

            seems very likely. Also seems to me that Will is a decent human being and very politically and socially conscious so i can definitely see him wanting nothing to do with this shit

            [–]wastedhrs 9 points10 points  (1 child)

            He liked Feist’s IG post from today (you can see it if you follow him) so I really do think so

            [–][deleted]  (3 children)

            [deleted]

              [–]starfox203 2 points3 points  (0 children)

              We have NO idea. Just guessing.

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                [–]hobbesthecat 95 points96 points  (7 children)

                Him tearing up / crying during the start of one of their new songs at Coachella this year about “how the last years have been tough” (paraphrasing)…

                GET FUCKED WIN - YOU AND YOUR FUCKING STUPID HAT

                [–][deleted]  (4 children)

                [deleted]

                  [–]raysofgold 31 points32 points  (3 children)

                  is it safe to say now that his aesthetic choices since about 2010 onward have been one of the single worst parts of being a fan of this band

                  [–]schweinebauer 15 points16 points  (0 children)

                  Someone took the hat off his head at the EN show in Dublin. He got extremely pissy about it.

                  [–]catchmeslippin 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                  Until now

                  [–]trashingqueen 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                  he's worn the same stupid jeans at every show so far

                  [–]mypatronusislasagna 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                  What about the pants? Roast him.

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                    [–]paraguas23 25 points26 points  (2 children)

                    He's in his 30s? I thought he was in his 40s?

                    [–]petra_vonkant 35 points36 points  (0 children)

                    now he is, some of these stories date back to 6 / 7 years ago

                    [–]GreenPlasticWaterCanCity with No Children 11 points12 points  (0 children)

                    At the time

                    [–]caninehere 10 points11 points  (2 children)

                    Gonna state up front for the record: I believe the victims in this case and I think there's plenty of evidence pointing to them telling the truth. He did this stuff, I don't see any way to really deny it.

                    Having said that... someone trying to kill themselves does not make the accusations true in and of itself. Someone who attempts suicide is in a really dark, fucked up place - the kind of dark, fucked up place where they may also misread situations and the people around them. That is not to say they're lying but when you're in a place where you're willing to kill yourself over something like this... you may also be in a place where you exaggerate the nature of it, possibly to the point of making something out of nothing at all.

                    I say this because I have been there, I accused someone of very hurtful things they frankly did not do,or at least not to the extent I made it out to be. But I'd created my own version of reality in my head where I was the victim in a relationship, and as such wasn't responsible for my own mistakes. It was what I wanted to believe and I'm now mature enough to acknowledge it was wrong and delusional.

                    But when 4+ people all come out and say this together... very different story.

                    [–]Scarepwn[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

                    I didn’t try to claim that this was proof of anything, just pointing out parts of the article I feel like people are overlooking and ignoring. If you didn’t read the article, you wouldn’t know the severity of the damage these actions did to the victims.

                    While mental health is a complicated issue, she was very direct in the fact that these actions were what caused the depression. Her mom even corroborates the time line of this. What happened to her was traumatic, someone she loved and respected sexual harassed her. For many of us, we turn to AF’s music to help get us through the hard times. Can you imagine how hard it must be to have that music be the source of your trauma? That must’ve felt incredibly lonely. Where do you go from there? Listen to other music? What if those people are awful too?

                    Experiencing this not only taints Arcade Fire for a victim, but, more importantly, shakes their own trust in themselves. That is long lasting damage that effects many aspects of life, especially if they don’t feel like they can talk to anyone about it or turn to previous sources of comfort.

                    Thank you for offering your own perspective with your past while also acknowledging the patterns here. It is definitely a shitty situation and I can only hope that bringing this to light helps the victims in the healing process

                    [–][deleted] 170 points171 points 2 (37 children)

                    Here's a dose of reality for you: how someone decides to respond to a situation is not indicative of its severity.

                    *That does not excuse any wrongdoing.* But to say that "someone tried to kill themselves therefore all the worst suspicions are therefore true* is lazy thinking - even if it comes from a good place.

                    [–]findingnemo2001 8 points9 points  (0 children)

                    I think youre right. In almost all cases, it is incorrect and immoral to put the blame for a suicide attempt on one specific person. The way it is accounted for in the article looks more like bad journalism, "Win, are you the reason why this person tried to kill themselves?"

                    Still, the incident demonstrates what's problematic about this whole case, which is how Win is revealed as an influential person who is taking advantage of his position to have sex with young girls and women. If anything, the suicide attempt shows that the people he was in contact with are young and vulnerable and he should have known and done better.

                    [–]FinancialIdiot70 70 points71 points  (27 children)

                    I’ve already said that I have no desire to defend Win, but to follow up on your point, I have a couple of experiences to recount.

                    I’ve spent time on the road, both working for and following bands. I worked for a couple of metal bands in the late 80s and quite honestly, the amount of women who would do anything to get close to the band was alarming. This was in the UK and not huge names, one of the bands was Anthrax, for context.

                    Every single night, I had women who came to the merch stand asking if I could get them backstage etc and that “they’d make it worth my while.”

                    By definition, that puts a strange power dynamic in place, for someone who’s a lead singer, I can’t imagine how much more that would be magnified.

                    Now, ask yourself if the people at your college or high school who were most likely to go on to be in a band, were the types of people who you’d say were worth looking up to?

                    Yet, here we are putting people on pedestals all the time with completely unrealistic expectations of them as a person.

                    Add into that, people absolutely desperate to get close to someone famous, and add in even further, the odd dynamics and likely personality types involved and these situations feel somewhat inevitable, no?

                    My direct personal experience was actually following a band. A “crew” of about 25-30 people were moving from show to show and we all ended up hanging out.

                    One girl, let’s call her Pippa, was incredibly vocal about her desire to meet one of the band members and she wasn’t coy about why.

                    Long story short, she ended up going back to his hotel one night and for two or three days afterwards was on cloud nine. She couldn’t say enough nice things about how he treated her and said he was a complete gentleman.

                    Cut to a few days later and it started to dawn on her that he wasn’t going to ask a second time, and then her mentality changed completely. Suddenly, he was a prick who only wanted one thing and she became pretty hostile towards him.

                    It was very eye opening to see such a 180 from someone in the space of a few days, based on one interaction.

                    I would imagine if you tracked “Pippa” down to speak to her, she’d likely not have good things to say about her experience.

                    [–]Momtoeve 15 points16 points  (0 children)

                    This! I've myself witnessed it several times in my group of acquaintances. This, to me, is looking real sussy like the situation described above.

                    [–][deleted] 12 points13 points  (16 children)

                    This whole thing gets into a larger discussion about what women want from their sexual experiences and connections. I'm of the belief that the vast majority of women come away from casual sex with a degraded sense of self-worth, even if they have fun in the moment of the act. So it's not surprising to me that many women feel this way when we live in a culture that celebrates female sexual empowerment but does not explain to women that they will likely feel "used" when they realize their famous (or just generally desirable) love interest doesn't actually care about them beyond their body parts. Your Pippa example demonstrates this well - and if she was part of a cultural zeitgeist that tells her feeling of being scorned equals victim status (despite seemingly no genuine abuse being involved), then of course things get even MORE messy.

                    The reality is that this realization does actually make many women depressed and self-loathing - perhaps even suicidal in some cases. And as much as we men might decry it, are any of us really going to say that we'd never be tempted by a beautiful and adoring young female fan showing clear interest in us? I'm not saying it's the "right thing" to betray your wife's trust and have sex with some largely naive college-age fan, no matter how alluring they are. But we also can't pretend that men aren't instinctually geared to want to experience these things - sexual conquest is a big part of our drive. From there though, awkward or unfortunately even abusive or semi-abusive experiences may come out of it, and it's the woman who suffers most. It's a dynamic that's old as time.

                    That's why socialization that limits sexual promiscuity in reasonable ways has a lot going for it, if only we cared about these things on a deeper level than we currently do... But that said, I think one of the best things we can do on a cultural level is try to de-empthasize the supposed "benefits" of liberated casual sex so women value their bodies and experiences more in such a way that makes their connections and experiences infinitely more meaningful and therefore healthy. In a world of Tinder and hyper sexualized pop music though, I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon sadly.

                    [–]KompyPGTY 7 points8 points  (14 children)

                    You should try talking to a woman in real life meatspace and see what she has to say about that

                    [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (13 children)

                    I've been married for 15 years my man. If you think women are more psychologically well adjusted when sleeping with multiple men over the course of their life, you are the one who needs to speak to more of them.

                    [–]swordfishtrombonez 14 points15 points  (10 children)

                    Cool, I love when men educate women about what is really going through women’s heads. It’s such a great opportunity to learn! It truly is a situation where the explainer has a lot more knowledge than the people they’re talking to or about 🥰

                    [–]b_a_c_girl 10 points11 points  (6 children)

                    I think talkingbedz is trying to add to the discussion in a constructive way. He’s made - and explained - a valid point that is unpopular at present times but it has merit and is worth consideration. It might not apply to all women but it might apply to a good number of them. For what it’s worth, I’m a woman, mid forties and I agree now with what he says. 20 years ago I would not have agreed. With age comes a different perspective about life choices and the human condition.

                    [–]swordfishtrombonez 5 points6 points  (5 children)

                    Exactly, b_a_c_girl. As a woman, I too think it makes sense to join Reddit for the sole purpose of defending the gross points talkingbedz is making.

                    [–]b_a_c_girl 3 points4 points  (2 children)

                    I’m sorry, I don’t get what you’re saying…

                    [–]lpalf 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                    they’re saying it’s weird that you’ve literally never made a single comment or post on Reddit until that one

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                        [–]lpalf 2 points3 points  (1 child)

                        Well this Win situation seems to illustrate that men are also not more psychologically well adjusted when sleeping with multiple women over the course of their lives

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                          [–]breadboxhero -1 points0 points  (5 children)

                          Oh yes those devious women liars and fakers. The misogyny in Reddit is just so predictable.

                          [–]sgtpeppies 18 points19 points  (0 children)

                          where did the redditor say this woman lied or faked something? do you enjoy getting mad at an imaginary opinion?

                          [–]FinancialIdiot70 12 points13 points  (3 children)

                          Are you suggesting that what I described never happens?

                          Or are you just seeing things to justify the opinion you’ve already made?

                          [–]apetaltail 12 points13 points  (2 children)

                          Nah, it just really sounds like you're justifying Win.

                          Edit: see, bringing up those stories in this conexts to "show nuance" is quite disingenuous. It is minimizing the allegations (that have witnesses and evidence). Now if you're not trying to say that the victims were just heartbroken fans and Win is at no fault, your comment needs reframing. But I suspect it is the other way around and you're actively trying to justify Win. Just because it does happen, doesn't mean this is the same case. There have been rumors of Win abusing his position this way since the early 2000s.

                          [–]FinancialIdiot70 6 points7 points  (1 child)

                          For the record, I love AF but have long thought Win was a dick. He definitely gives off “do you know who I am” vibes.

                          The allegations wouldn’t be too far from the image that I’ve built up of him over the past few years.

                          So if you felt I was trying to justify Win, that wasn’t the case. I was more thinking out loud on my experiences in those types of situations where dynamics are not “normal”.

                          I guess my overall feeling is that Win has a lot to answer for. Yes, he’s a rock star, but he’s not in Motely Crue, he’s in Arcade Fire, who represent themselves in a manner completely inconsistent with his behavior.

                          I was planning on flying to the east coast for a run of shows this fall, that’s not happening now as I can’t stand in front of him and sing my heart out to lyrics that feel hollow in the light of this information.

                          [–][deleted] -4 points-3 points  (1 child)

                          It used to be that when you did something you regretted you took responsibility for making a poor decision and left it at that. Now you absolve yourself of any responsibility and put all of your shame on someone else for being "abusive" and take to Twitter/Pitchfork. Pitchfork is aptly named as they continually run these hatchet jobs on male artists. Remember that Pitchfork isn't some mecca of investigative journalism and are trying to score points for jumping on MeToo. It's a bunch of nonsense.

                          Nobody forced any of these people to do anything with Win. They chose to. Now they regret it. Or they chose not to and he...backed off.

                          The story from the music writer is also extremely suspect as their definition of consent is very fucking rigid bordering on comical.

                          Is coming on to someone sexual assault now? Give me a break.

                          [–]Excellent_Homework24 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                          The problem with the article is that it conflates all the encounters. One was assault for sure. The others are fucked up & point to a pattern.

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                            [–]craigthecrayfish 4 points5 points  (1 child)

                            The point isn't that Win bears 100% responsibility for the suicide attempt as there were obviously other factors, but it demonstrates that his actions had a serious effect on the victims. It's a little disingenuous to frame a response to the trauma he caused as "how someone decides to respond" as if it was an intentional choice and not the natural result of strong psychological distress over his constant harassment.

                            [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                            I don't disagree, "decides to" wasn't the best wording. That's fair.

                            [–]DoubleHelixHobbes 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                            Did you even read the article?

                            [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                            Yes

                            [–]123DanB -1 points0 points  (3 children)

                            Justifying little snot, you. Wake up.

                            [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

                            Wrong takeaway dude.

                            [–]TravoBasic 46 points47 points  (2 children)

                            I couldn’t imagine what Regine is going through right now.

                            [–]Nikolaki8 36 points37 points  (1 child)

                            Especially with the news that she recently suffered a miscarriage, I’m certainly sympathetic towards what she’s going through at the moment. The fact still remains that her statement dismissing all these women’s experiences is absolutely disgusting.

                            [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                            I'm sure she would have rathered that hitherto private information not be broadcast around the world in this context.

                            [–]Tricky_Examination_3 115 points116 points  (37 children)

                            IMHO, those trying to justify Win's behaviour are delusional fans who are in complete denial.

                            [–]Left_Sustainability 31 points32 points  (32 children)

                            I don’t think it’s as black and white as that. Collectively, society is working through the spectrum of sexual misconduct as a topic. In this particular case it isn’t a topic related to legality so there’s a lot for people to unpack. Particularly in situations where the main issue seems to stem from power dynamics related to someone with power and others without it and how those without power feel based on pressure from the person in power. For many people’s physical interactions with others there was often someone who initiated an action and someone who reacted positively or negatively in that moment to the physical interaction. Society as a whole is adjusting to the shared experiences of those who go along with actions or reciprocate actions back who are sharing that they are doing these things despite not fully being sure they want to and this has all lead to a very complicated discussion around consent and the extent of consent that should be secured before proceeding with an act of any type. It’s changing how people interact with each other casually at a time where random hookups may never have been more common due to apps. There’s also this weird era of dick pics with shows like Euphoria claiming they’re the new currency for courtship. It’s a bizzare time for people who are hooking up.

                            [–]apetaltail 15 points16 points  (1 child)

                            The thing is, in this case there was no blurry line of power dynamics. The victims that came forward specifically said* they were unexpectedly harassed by him and at some point told him to stop. He just doesn't understand consent, and his statement is very clear on that.

                            [–]Odd_Profession_2902 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                            They asked him to stop and he did. Everything before that could be explained as misreading body language. Or maybe he’s just lying and knew all along they were uncomfortable. The most important thing to remember is none of us were there and saw their interaction. So it really is a gray area. Does the fact that so many women came forward make it more believable? Yeah I’d say so.

                            [–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (25 children)

                            you mean society has yet to learn the definition of consent

                            [–]Left_Sustainability -1 points0 points  (24 children)

                            I think collectively many believe that when an adult is not intoxicated or drugged and agrees to a physical act of some kind with another adult than they have done so because they have consented to do so. And that many are struggling with this newer idea surrounding power dynamics and how someone in a position of power wields an influence over those with less power even when it isn’t an employment situation. Most people understand the misconduct aspect when the person in power can wield control over the other person’s career but when they can’t do that it is less clear to others why the other adult is incapable of continual refusal of advances, or ending a relationship before it begins, like so many other people do when advances or flirtations or requests are unwanted. Some don’t believe that just because a celebrity hits on someone or requests something of someone that it means the other adult should feel obligated to oblige unless they desire to. That’s why this situation and the Aziz Ansari situation are closer to each other than some of the other misconduct situations. Including some that lead to criminal charges.

                            [–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (23 children)

                            He pushed one of them up against a wall and proceeded to make out with them without their consent. Really, this isn’t hard.

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                              [–]PurpleOwl85 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                              There is no denial, they put themselves in dangerous situations with a complete stranger and didn't even make police reports when he assaulted them.

                              I would have much more sympathy and respect for these women if they took some accountability and warned others about WB many years ago.

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                                [–]Left_Sustainability 92 points93 points  (36 children)

                                Missing from the summary:

                                1. Win and Regine admit to an open marriage.
                                2. Win doesn’t discount any of the sexual relations as happening but refutes the fact that from his perspective they weren’t consensual relations.
                                3. Win admits that during the MeToo era he became more aware of power dynamics than he had known before. (Like many in society)
                                4. The sharing of other accounts from other groupies he had sex with — while controversial — shouldn’t be outright discounted as inconsequential in establishing the credibility of his account of the events. They don’t in any way discount the claims from the 5 who came forward but they may better support the side of the story Win feels they were part of.
                                5. The fact remains that some of these people may have come forward from a belief that they mattered more to Win emotionally than they truly did to him and that once that realization came in they felt used and abused in ways they didn’t during the actual encounters themselves. This is a psychological phenomenon that is still probably being unpacked by academics but it is at least partially relevant to the entirety of the conversation. As is the mental health of the participants themselves. It is probably now impossible to separate the state of their mental health prior to their encounters with Win Butler to prior in any kind of quantifiable way but going back to point #4 several other sexual partners of Win Butler’s did not feel the same way and why that is we don’t know. It could obviously be that the encounters were indeed different. It could also be that the women who felt it was consensual and who were willing to come to his aid have a different view of predatory behavior or abusive power dynamics than those who feel differently. It could be something else.
                                6. Win claims one of the women began coming unwelcome to places he was at to the extent he had to warn security. She denies security talked to her but this type of situation can lead to increased anger.

                                None of what I’ve shared in any way is meant to discredit any of the remarkable work Pitchfork did. Nor is it meant to discredit the claims of the people who shared their accounts. It is being shared solely in the interest of seeking greater balance and wider perspective by highlighting some of the details that the OP chose not to get into seriously.

                                [–]Excellent_Homework24 6 points7 points  (0 children)

                                I don’t think Regine agreed to this open marriage. I’m not sure, but this seems part of the PR. I know of at least one woman who said Win snuck around when Regine was busy with the baby and/or sleeping. I think these four accusations indicate many many more. Win is pretty awful. I’ve heard that Jeremy is too. Like really bad. I keep wondering if Win is going to throw Jeremy under the bus.

                                [–]petra_vonkant 30 points31 points  (11 children)

                                he sharing of other accounts from other groupies he had sex with — while controversial — shouldn’t be outright discounted as inconsequential in establishing the credibility of his account of the events. They don’t in any way discount the claims from the 5 who came forward but they may better support the side of the story Win feels they were part of.

                                honestly this part is not helping their case imo. Him going 'talk to some people i've sex consensually' is basically the 'i can't be racist i have a black friend' of this situation. It made it even worse, imo.

                                [–]Left_Sustainability 9 points10 points  (10 children)

                                I suppose it all depends on the ratio. What if he’s literally slept with more than 100 super fans over the past decade and over 90% of the others feel like they know what it was and wasn’t (just sex for sex’s sake and nothing more)? The more any one sleeps around the more they risk sleeping with someone who feels hurt by the interaction in hindsight. At a certain point mathematically it becomes almost like a disclaimer on a pharma product. Some people who slept with Win Butler experienced X, Y and Z but in the majority of participants this was not the case.” For every pill there are some who have negative interactions but people choose to take the pill or not based on the total ratio of positive to negative interactions. News organizations want more than one claimant because it establishes credibility to the claims but what we don’t know is the total volume of sexual participants and as crazy as it sounds… that does seem relevant when seeking to establish accounts from multiple perspectives on behavioral patterns.

                                [–]fastballooningheadNeon Bible 27 points28 points  (1 child)

                                It doesn't matter how many women you sleep with, the only acceptable ratio is 100% consenting and feeling comfortable with their interactions. If the number is any lower than 100% then we have a problem.

                                [–]Left_Sustainability 10 points11 points  (0 children)

                                Well, he does have a problem because some of the women he has slept with do feel used and abused by the power dynamic at play but from his perspective these were interactions with women who seemed into him and consented to doing what he wanted to do with them but who see it differently and are sharing so now.

                                [–]apetaltail 11 points12 points  (6 children)

                                "Feels hurt" is a wild understatement of the level of harassment these women lived.

                                There definitely were inappropriate interactions that Win is actively undermining as "romantic" while trying to make himself the sole victim of the miscarriage Régine had. There's no "ratio" that can fix that. I mean, I'd find it extremely problematic if people were like "oh yeah, this dude had some inappropriate interactions with some children, but out of the 100s of children he has contact with, it is a good ratio so everything is fine".

                                [–]Left_Sustainability 9 points10 points  (5 children)

                                Those are wildly different scenarios though. In your example he would be facing jail time regardless and every single instance was jail worthy. In reality no crimes have been claimed by any of the woman at all. The misconduct is that he aggressively pursued adult women and that because he was a celebrity had power over them. They now look back and see the acts as transactional rather than loving. Some seemed to want or believe there was more occurring between them then there was. It hurt some of them that he only wanted sexual acts from them and no deep friendship or relationship beyond that.

                                [–]apetaltail 3 points4 points  (3 children)

                                Is sending unrequested nudes to people legal in Canada then? And you really think it is just a feeling of "transactionality" when one of the victims specifically told him not to visit them at their apartment and he did go anyway and sexually assaulted them as soon as they opened the door?

                                No wonder why you're talking about "ratios". You already made up your mind about the incidents being just unhinged fans wanting something romantic, when that is not the case (and the one framing everything as romantic is actually Win).

                                [–]Left_Sustainability 1 point2 points  (2 children)

                                If people have had sexual interactions is sending nudes the same? It’s an honest question. I’m from an era that didn’t send nudes so this whole trend is new to me. Did he continue to once told to stop? I didn’t see that he did. For him to show up at someone’s place rather than then show up at one of his hotel’s suggests to me that those two had more of a fling and more of a relationship than some of the other ones. I would certainly be interested in hearing his perspective on why he showed up there that day.

                                [–]apetaltail 4 points5 points  (1 child)

                                Honest question, do you know about consent? You cannot just send someone nudes even if you are in a relationship. The same way you cannot just go to someone and start groping them even if you are in a relationship. They need to be explicitly on board with it. Otherwise you're not having a consensual encounter.

                                And go read it by yourself. It's a quite long read and this post is just scratching the surface. I've already said it, they told him to stop, they told him to not visit them, and he did anyway. His whole statement is a huge redflag. And seriously, read the full victims account. Win seemed to be told about each case, so he had time to talk to and dissect everything with his crisis PR with time ahead and try to minimize everything as romantic (because he hired a crisis PR that specializes in dealing with these sort of cases)

                                [–]TheraKoon 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                                This makes every woman I've dated guilty of sexual assault. It's a ridiculous, farcical attempt at creating a problem that only people with no actual problems in life care about. We had an island where lots of rich powerful people visited to take advantage of under age children, and only two people were ever held accountable, one mysteriously dying.

                                If you have to draw charts and graphs to explain why something is a problem, it's a first world problem,

                                [–]lmurp 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                Can you read? He touched them sexually without their consent. That's assault. That's a crime.

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                                  [–]onlyarcadefireCold Wind 23 points24 points  (0 children)

                                  Yes, especially #5. One thing that screams out to me is that at least the ones that were superfans likely had some obsessive/emotional/mental issues. Fan is short for fanatic. I think it's fair to question their stability based on the fact that they followed the band around from city to city, went to as many shows as they could, etc. Not to say that that kind of behavior is inherently unstable, but it's definitely something that should be considered. As far as PR goes, it's also entirely likely that was set up by the label and not Win personally. It' s not just about him and the band. It's about all the moneyed interests including venues, ticketmaster, labels, streaming and of course the hundreds of employees whose lives will be affected. Also it's pretty standard practice for any celebrity who ends up with any kind of bad press. Is it fucked up? Yeah, sure, but it's not really relevant.

                                  I'm really not trying to defend him either, but I'm just trying to also point out that it's just not as simple as the OP contends.

                                  [–]Scarepwn[S] 12 points13 points  (4 children)

                                  I feel like these additions are excusatory.

                                  1) It doesn’t matter if the relationship was open. It doesn’t matter if he cheated on his wife or not. He sexually harassed these people. THAT’s the issue.

                                  2) The fact of the sexual relations is not the issue. The issue is his constant harassment of these people. That’s the part that matters here and frankly, I don’t believe him. I don’t care if he didn’t realize it was wrong at the time, he should have.

                                  3) MeToo has been around for quite some time, with it hitting its peak in 2017 with Weinstein. These relationships took place from 2016-2020. If his eyes were opened by MeToo, then he should’ve stopped. He wasn’t someone who learned from MeToo, he is a reason MeToo needed to happen.

                                  4) I don’t think this is a reason to discredit him, but I do think it is creepy and weird. But again, it doesn’t matter. You can have perfectly fine, consensual sex with a million people but if you are sexually harassing women, sending naked pictures, and showing up to their house when they said no, then you’re a sexual harasser.

                                  5) When did any of these people claim to have a close relationship with Win? None of them were under that delusion. In fact, to the contrary, they were all deeply uncomfortable with the situation and wanted it to stop. This was not a “I thought we were an item and it hurt that he didn’t see it this way.” This was “he jerked off on FaceTime even though I didn’t want to and then told me not to tell anyone.”

                                  6) That woman literally had her boyfriend working at that restaurant. Of course she was coming there a lot! My friend got a job at Chipotle so I started going to Chipotle more.

                                  [–]Left_Sustainability -1 points0 points  (2 children)

                                  1. This is an Arcade Fire fan site and it matters to some fans that Regine was at least aware of it and consented to an open marriage.
                                  2. I agree that harassment appears to be the main topic of misconduct because nobody claimed they were drugged, raped, under age, or that anything criminal occurred. The question some have is that if harassment did occur when did it move from a star struck fan who shared contact info or agreed to meet up to become someone unwanted? Where did the flirting end or the kissing or anything else that was wanted end and when did the continued pursuits become unwanted?
                                  3. Unless I’m mistaken all of the claims take place prior to the 2017 metoo movement. If this is indeed the case then his claim that he has come to realize more about power dynamics gains added weight.
                                  4. I would need to know more about some of these specifics from both sides to comment on them further.
                                  5. When did they become deeply uncomfortable is perhaps the question? When they first shared contact info? When they agreed to meet up? When they agreed to sexual acts together? When they decided to fly to multiple places afterward and continue to go to shows to see him? Or, was it at some later time when it was clear to them finally that they weren’t the only ones or that he only wanted this from them?
                                  6. She flew to multiple locations he was at. To the extent where he warned his security about her.

                                  [–]Scarepwn[S] 10 points11 points  (1 child)

                                  So I’m not going to go back and forth on all these points simply because I have other things to be doing.

                                  But I do want to say that with the exception of Lily (who gave him a business card) ever other instance HE reached out to THEM. He gave them his number, told them to text. One of the women blocked two of his numbers.

                                  The main point I want to get across is that it was ALWAYS uncomfortable. None of these women wanted to pursue a sexual relationship with him. It was Win who made advances, sent unsolicited messages, and showed up at someone’s house when they explicitly told him no.

                                  Honestly, all of Win’s behavior is covered in corporate training videos. You can’t even get a job these days without watching an hour long video on why behavior like this is bad. We just want to justify and excuse it because we feel like we know him or we don’t want to lose the love we have for his music.

                                  As far as MeToo stuff, 2 of the claims started in 2017 and 2018.

                                  [–]Left_Sustainability 8 points9 points  (0 children)

                                  I don’t know if it’s as black and white as that. They say he flirted and hit on them. By sharing that they make clear they know he’s physically attracted to them. They then decide to text him. Some end up literally having sex with him. Others send nudes to him. Others share where they live. Others fly to places they know he will be. They might not have felt good as they took part but they did take part little by little as things progressed from meeting randomly, to deciding to text, to deciding to send nudes, then deciding to share where they live, some deciding to meet up and have sex, others deciding to fly to him. It is literally impossible for many of the things that happened between them to happen and be entirely 1-way. For some of these things to happen some level of interest of some kind or the providing details about themselves or sending nudes or going to meet up needed to occur and that’s what Win was trying to express also. I do agree that Win would have benefited from working in a corporate job the past decade and receiving misconduct training though. He’s lived like he’s in college for the past 20 years and never had a traditional job where many of these things have been worked on by HR for staff.

                                  [–]GreenPlasticWaterCanCity with No Children 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                  This was “he jerked off on FaceTime even though I didn’t want to and then told me not to tell anyone.”

                                  If there only was a solution like, hanging up the phone...

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                                    [–]Bean_from_Iowa 30 points31 points  (9 children)

                                    There's no way one can walk away from reading the article (and, my god, all the comments that have followed) and not think the guy is a creep. And if you don't think the guy is a creep, take a hard look at yourself.

                                    [–]GreenPlasticWaterCanCity with No Children 8 points9 points  (4 children)

                                    I do think the guy is a creep.

                                    What I'm missing in the article is about the roles and responsibilties of the other people involved. If you're receiving unwanted texts, pictures and calls you can always block and report those. One even admitted that after blocking two of his numbers he stopped reaching out. I really struggle to see why the people involved haven't used these ready availible and accessible tools.

                                    Was there a power dynamics inbalance, sure. But the people involved were all adults and could've acted instead going along with it. Why did they go allong with it? Because they felt excited or flattered? I'm really struggling to only put the blame on Win.

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                                      [–]ZebraCool 10 points11 points  (0 children)

                                      Now we know why the last couple albums have been meh. Dude got bored and started putting more energy in this stuff. I’d have to think he accomplished more than he’d ever imagined and started so young. Seems like he had big issues that his fame fed into and no one around him saw or pointed out. Well he will have plenty of time to work on it now. Bet the up coming tour will be nice and awkward…and more empty than normal. Hope he gets help and finds peace and grace in his life. He has many years to live and they can have more purpose. Glad everyone who spoke out is still with us, and hope they can find peace and grace.

                                      [–]amspired 52 points53 points  (0 children)

                                      Well said. Solidarity with the victims.

                                      [–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (3 children)

                                      Random comment here. I tried posting on the subreddit asking why the initial post with P4k article got locked after less than 24 hours. It never got posted, not sure if it was blocked by mods or by Reddit rules if I don’t have enough karma or whatever. Can someone please explain to me why it was locked or make a post about it? Kinda understood locking the post when those rumors were taking off a few months ago because they were unsubstantiated, but this is a reputable article and contains statements in Win and Regines own words. We as a community need a space to discuss

                                      [–]Scarepwn[S] 8 points9 points  (2 children)

                                      I don’t know why, but my guess is that the comments got out of hand. Even on this post there is some really disrespectful and gross comments. There is a lot of civil discussion going on, but also some needlessly negative words thrown at the victims.

                                      I wouldn’t be surprised if it was due to stuff like that.

                                      [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (1 child)

                                      For some reason it feels to me like they want to sweep it all under the rug, just because last time the intent was clearly to shut down the conversation. They also deleted posts by women for years who were trying to ask if it had happened to anyone else. I hope your theory is right but unfortunately assume they’re backing up Win…

                                      [–]Scarepwn[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                      For the record, I saw on another post they said they lock it when they don’t have the manpower to effectively moderate it. Which is fair. I can’t imagine the mod team is very large.

                                      [–]Reaganrocks12 8 points9 points  (1 child)

                                      The thing that really bothered me is that all his responses seemed to point to him believing that essentially any woman, or enby in the one case, being around him, just in whatever context, was essentially consent to him. Like he and the victims describe essentially the same events but he just says “but it was consensual! It was a date! She was flirting so it was consensual, and I just moved forward!” When it seems like many of them were just open to hanging out with a musician that inspired them.

                                      I’ve hung out with a lot of smaller artists at the venue after shows and stuff like that, and I would be extremely creeped out if any read that as flirting or consent, ESPECIALLY if they escalated the situation without getting actual consent first.

                                      It’s so disappointing.

                                      [–]Scarepwn[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                                      For me one of the most telling things is when he interpreted no response to dick pics as “they are just away from the phone so I should keep sending these.”

                                      [–][deleted] 14 points15 points  (1 child)

                                      makes creature comforts lyrics very disturbing

                                      [–]PelletsOfMescaline 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                      Assisted suicide She dreams about dying all the time She told me she came so close Filled up the bathtub and put on our first record

                                      [–]KGeedora 18 points19 points  (30 children)

                                      It's pretty interesting how the same back and forth happens every time this happens with an artist. I remember the same thing happening with Kozelek and Ryan Adams. It's always the same dialogue amongst fans. Arcade Fire may be the biggest act though and I have no idea what can happen from here.

                                      [–]petra_vonkant 12 points13 points  (2 children)

                                      Kozelek's a known asshole though, always has been. Like, he never even attempted to project a good guy image or whatever, context i think is also part of how these things are perceived. Win's / Arcade fire image + music + message doesn't really allow for much of a 'oh well, it just be like that' reaction imo (not that i would ever had that kind of reaction anyway but you know)

                                      [–]KGeedora 5 points6 points  (1 child)

                                      Yes I agree with you. For sure. I don't think they will be able to sell this at all. It clashes too hard with their whole thing. I can't see how they make it through this as the same band really.

                                      I hate I can't really listen to Kozelek anymore btw.

                                      [–]Blvd_Nights 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                      I remember Owen Pallett bragged about selling all his old Red House Painters vinyl on Twitter back when that Laura Snapes article came out.

                                      Maybe Owen should donate some proceeds from their HER score collab now.

                                      [–]FireAtSeaParkss 2 points3 points  (3 children)

                                      Brand New was a big one for me. Especially when the bands lyrics are so emotional and heartfelt...

                                      [–]KGeedora 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                                      Yeah for sure. They obviously didn't survive it

                                      [–]TimAlloy 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                                      That one still really gets me. Especially given they’d just put out such a great album. That’s from my selfish viewpoint. What a douche

                                      [–]onlyarcadefireCold Wind 1 point2 points  (22 children)

                                      It's not so much interesting as it is typical. Black and white. good and bad. No room for questioning and looking more critically at the facts and the media's history with sensationalism, etc. Also understanding that plenty of celebrities do shitty things it's it totally not cool. Lots of gray areas here, as at least a handful of us have pointed out. Also lots of opinions, which are just that - opinions. Totally understandable to be outraged, not so understandable to be blindly defending, but also just an opinion.

                                      Basically it's outrage culture on both "sides". Unfortunate but expected and predictable. I will say this though - I'm still not sure how I personally feel about all of it and don't know how it will affect my appreciation for the music and the show. I know I'll have to go since I have tickets and want to find out how I feel then.

                                      [–][deleted]  (21 children)

                                      [deleted]

                                        [–]BriefMiserable215 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                        is it predatory?

                                        [–]onlyarcadefireCold Wind 2 points3 points  (2 children)

                                        Nobody said he didn't do anything shitty. In fact I said what he did was shitty. I also agree that what he did was fucked up. I think "predatory" is a little harder to define. Pursuing younger women (of legal age) through social media is not necessarily predatory. It's creepy and him using his fame to make it easier is also fucked up. Is he a sexual "predator"? Maybe. Did he rape anyone? No. Did he force himself on anyone? Maybe, maybe not. It's a gray area, but as I stated, that's not a popular way to look at things. You can see it at as "unequivocally fucked" and I actually tend to agree with that statement, but there are still some gray areas in the details.

                                        [–]GrooseandGoot 4 points5 points  (1 child)

                                        I'll repeat what the other guy said, its predatory enough to slide into the DMs of teenagers as a dude in your mid 30s, let alone with the power dynamic of being a rock star compared to an adoring fan. This one isn't very grey to me.

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                                          [–]mulderufo13Neon Bible 17 points18 points  (0 children)

                                          As someone that was sexually assaulted/abused their music helped me escape and I even have a neon bible tattoo and I felt sick reading the article.

                                          I plan on covering it up eventually because now their music no longer holds the same meaning to me with everything coming out (plus the artist who did it wasn’t great on his line work but that’s beside the point) and the monster who caused this harm acting like it’s nothing, it’s absurd. Hold people accountable for their actions let these victims speak their piece and get their story out there. My heart goes out to the survivors and I hope they will heal someday. It’s not easy and I still haven’t healed from my own experiences I couldn’t imagine someone u possibly looked up to being such a monster. I can’t support arcade fire anymore. Fuck Win and anyone that is standing by his side

                                          [–]zvezd0pad 11 points12 points  (0 children)

                                          I see some comments talking about “he said she said” or fans feeling spurned he only wanted sex from them. Look- he sent people dick pics when they explicitly asked him not to do that, showed up at someone’s home when they explicitly asked him not to do that and kept trying to horny video call someone after they explicitly asked him not to do that. The guy clearly doesn’t care about personal boundaries.

                                          [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                                          Thank you so much for writing this. This is the first I’m hearing of this.

                                          Any survivors reading this thread: ignore the victim blaming comments. Don’t spend energy reading “nuanced” walls of text. These are from people who’ve never given more than five minutes of thought to the issue.

                                          I believe his accusers. I believe anyone who reads some of the DARVO comments here and feels invalidated and triggered.

                                          [–]whalesharkmama 24 points25 points  (0 children)

                                          Amen!!!

                                          [–][deleted] 12 points13 points  (3 children)

                                          This post from OP is just about the best thing I’ve read on the internet since this came out. Thank you

                                          [–]Scarepwn[S] 12 points13 points  (2 children)

                                          I appreciate the support. I felt like I was going crazy reading through the comments on these posts and seeing everyone excuse the situation or only posting snippets from Win’s response.

                                          [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (1 child)

                                          You really nailed it here and if any of the victims are reading these posts (and let’s be real, they probably are) I’m sure they appreciate your support

                                          [–]Scarepwn[S] 11 points12 points  (0 children)

                                          Honestly, I hope they aren’t reading these posts.

                                          I can’t imagine anything more damaging and stressful than reading through all of these takes on your sexual trauma.

                                          Even though they are anonymous everyone is calling them liars, immature, and naive. I hope that bringing these events to light has brought them some kind of peace and that they can start to move on with their lives.

                                          [–]Jovatov 4 points5 points  (3 children)

                                          I agree on all the rest in OP. However not on: she attempted a suicide therefore Win is bad, thats not a helpful thing to say. Not saying that Win isn't in the wrong here, but am saying that to me the attempted suicide and mental issues cant be one-on-one put on Win. Thats not helping.

                                          Mental issues and actions taken are in the end responsibility of everyone for themselves. I'm not responsible for your actions and Win is not responsible for a girls actions. Still, of course, he is responsible for his actions which are really bad, and his 'excuse' isn't helping him with the way he puts circumstances as the reason for his actions.

                                          [–]Scarepwn[S] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

                                          Her suicide attempt and depression were directly tied to a traumatic experience with Win.

                                          I also think it is the most telling example of the impact he had on these people’s lives. I didn’t see anyone talking about this aspect and felt like it needed to be put on the forefront. He seriously hurt these people. If they had mental health issues before, he recklessly inflamed as a result of his predatory behavior.

                                          Even if she didn’t attempt suicide, his actions were still despicable, predatory, and wildly inappropriate.

                                          And also, she was very clear her depression and attempt was directly caused by his actions.

                                          [–]Jovatov 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                                          Read my comment again, I'm not excusing Wins actions because of her suicide attempt. I'm saying that her suicide attempt cant be the reason that his actions are wrong. Let me put it the other way round. If a girl doesn't have any significant response on his actions, it didn't impact her and she goes on with living: does that make his actions OK? No, his actions are wrong, no matter what actions a victim takes.

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                                            [–]petra_vonkant 34 points35 points  (5 children)

                                            i wanna print this out and mail it to some people i had the misfortune of talking to today who insist this is a he said/she said situation.

                                            Win hired IVANKA TRUMP'S PR PERSON to handle this. Just like what any innocent person would do. And like you said, these girls / people aren't gonna gain shit from this. The least we can do is respect their pain, ffs

                                            [–]Tpur 11 points12 points  (0 children)

                                            Yeah, all people who hire lawyers are guilty too, right? It’s not a logical train of thought.

                                            [–]Scarepwn[S] 7 points8 points  (2 children)

                                            For reals. I understand when people say “everyone has a PR person” and I totally get that. BUT it’s also important to realize that everything you are reading from Win’s perspective was tailor made to make you excuse the situation so you’ll keep purchasing merch, music, and tour tickets.

                                            They are paying money for a PR person to do this because it is financially beneficial for them to do so.

                                            [–]PurpleOwl85 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                                            He also has a family and naturally wants to give his side of the story, it would be very weird if he just said nothing.

                                            His career and life are being torn apart, he may as well spend his money on this best PR he can, I don't see anything wrong with it.

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                                              [–]hopelesslyagnostic 2 points3 points  (3 children)

                                              God, this sucks. This really really sucks. Their music means SO much to me and I don’t think that will ever change. I don’t think I’ll ever be able to stop listening to The Suburbs truthfully, I can lie and say I will but with what that album means to me… But I don’t know. Maybe the guilt I will now have listening to it will be too much to handle.

                                              I know I’m not the only one with strong emotional attachments to their music. I know the band is more than just Win, too but most songs are sung by him and most songs are written by him. Knowing the truth about who he is just completely changes my perspective, and I hate knowing I so heavily relate to many of the songs written by an abuser. It’s like Brand New all over again.

                                              I have tickets for November with a friend and now I’m going to have to discuss with her what we want to do. I was really looking forward to that but damn. Just damn all around.

                                              [–]PJeroen 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                                              At least Brand New happened when Jesse was a stupid 20yo or so kid and he was very apologetic. Which doesn't excuse him obviously. But still.

                                              Win doesn't even seem to understand yet why he's in the wrong.

                                              [–]hopelesslyagnostic 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                              Very true. Which is just insane.

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                                                [–]green_zzz 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                                                Reading this reminded me Mitch Kessler's character from "The Morning Show".

                                                I am so sorry for all the victims. I will never be able to listen to their music same way.

                                                [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                                                I am just sad - sad for the entire set of events. It's tragic and I hate it as a fan. I believe the accusers. I believe Win needs help or worse in jail if it's true. It's terrible and because AF lyrics are so personal it's impossible to separate them from this now. They have influenced so many bands and artists I love, now I have to sit here and just feel disgusted.

                                                I gave up listening to Ryan Adams and now I am going to have to give up listening to Arcade Fire. Even if all of these allegations aren't true, I am just disgusted by his behaviors anyway. I get no one is perfect but come on, you have this beautiful wife and kid and off doing this shit? Ok who cares it's an open relationship? He needs help big time and I just am disgusted by all of this anyway. I just feel sick and sad by it all.

                                                [–]BriefMiserable215 2 points3 points  (1 child)

                                                they jilted cause they got dropped, no cap, I can see through all the bullshit, y’all talking about hunting and scoping, pfffft. can’t believe how petty some of these comments are in trying to summarise a persons personality based of a fuckn elevator interaction. I’m sure you’ve never acted out. Y’all are sick.

                                                [–]BriefMiserable215 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                                                how’s the clickbait title

                                                [–]thekingofthegingersNeighborhood #2 (Laika) 7 points8 points  (0 children)

                                                I’m very conflicted about whether to go to the shows next week.

                                                [–]ACardAttackRebellion (Lies) 15 points16 points  (8 children)

                                                and said that while it was consensual, they didn’t feel like they could say no.

                                                I hate to think how many people have been put in this situation.

                                                [–]Left_Sustainability -1 points0 points  (5 children)

                                                Silicon Valley may need to invent brain wave readers for consent soon if words themselves no longer are strong enough. Celebrities will then be able to hear this electronic prompt:” Although potential sexual Partner may seem interested based on word choice and physical actions… deep down inside psychologically they may not be 100% sure if sleeping with a celebrity they admire is wise. Consent therefore in both body and mind with this particular individual has not yet been fully achieved. Celebrity is advised to present consent document for partner to sign to mitigate risk or to contact lawyers immediately and exit while live streaming the present state of interaction in order to best avoid possibility for cancellation at some random later date.”

                                                [–]Modest_Matt 12 points13 points  (3 children)

                                                Honestly sick of this 'power dynamics' bullshit. If you're not interested, just say no. What do they think would happen to them? I get that in a Harvey Weinstein situation their career and reputation were threatened, but what did these women have to lose exactly?

                                                They act like women are powerless to resist the hypnotic charms of a rock star, such condescending bullshit. It's infantilising.

                                                [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

                                                The women couldn't say no. Why not exactly? It sounds like when they did Win respected that and backed off. The Kozelek story had the same thing. He hit on a girl, she said no and he...called her a cab.

                                                Regretting something does not equal sexual assault. If I sleep with a woman voluntarily and later regret it that's on me, not them.

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                                                  [–]ACardAttackRebellion (Lies) 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                                                  Not just celebrities, but in every day life, whether it be with a long term partner, hook up, etc. One may not feel like they can say no without being attacked or hurt.

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                                                    [–]NannyNumber4 9 points10 points  (6 children)

                                                    Yeah this could be a wrap sadly

                                                    [–][deleted]  (5 children)

                                                    [deleted]

                                                      [–]F_For_YouArcade Fire EP 10 points11 points  (3 children)

                                                      Honestly, it would be best if they did.

                                                      [–]jjazznola 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                                      They are playing in Dublin the next 2 nights.

                                                      [–]baxterstrangelove 4 points5 points  (5 children)

                                                      Where are you getting the point on the suicide attempt? I didn’t see that in the P4k article

                                                      [–]Olaf4586 16 points17 points  (4 children)

                                                      It's in there.

                                                      "Afterward, Fiona claims, she attempted suicide by swallowing a large quantity of extra-strength Tylenol. “I felt incredibly low,” she said. 'The toll of having to keep everything secret, constantly pushing my needs aside in order to appease him, lack of boundaries, and the guilt of being the other woman was getting too hard to ignore.'"

                                                      The article doesn't go so far as to say she attempted suicide directly because of his actions

                                                      [–]Scarepwn[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

                                                      For the record, the quote that quoted literally has her saying “I did this because he asked me to keep everything secret and did not respect my boundaries”

                                                      Later in the article it says:

                                                      Fiona said of her depression, “It was absolutely related to him.”

                                                      [–]onlyarcadefireCold Wind 4 points5 points  (1 child)

                                                      Reading that again I'm struck by "her guilt" being one of the reasons she allegedly attempted suicide. In fact all of those reasons had more to do with her than him. It's not his fault that she felt guilty. From his perspective Regine was cool with it. I understand that she felt like she needed to keep it secret, appease him, etc. but that's on her, not him. Not saying he isn't a dick and manipulated her, maybe even forced a kiss or put his hand on her thigh (I can't remember who alleged what) but he didn't cause her to attempt suicide. Suicide can never be blamed on anyone. It's always about the depression/anxiety/illness of the person who attempts. Sure, other people's actions can greatly affect someone's state of mind but the whole "he drove me to it" narrative is total bullshit. Same as an abuser blaming the victim. I'm sure this person felt terrible and may or may not have attempted suicide. Most attempts are cries for help rather than an actual desire to die and trying to end your life with Tylenol is pretty hard to do. So yeah, it sucks that the whole interaction with Win made her feel so fucked up, but you can't hold him (or anyone) responsible for someone wanting to commit suicide.

                                                      One notable exception: There was a story not too long ago about a woman who told her ex boyfriend to kill himself over the phone. He did and she was convicted. That's a little different though.

                                                      [–]eazeaze 7 points8 points  (0 children)

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                                                        [–]tbonewest 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                                        All the hand wringing over what basically amount to rock star / groupie interactions. Rock stars are privileged twats and groupies are delusional basket cases. Jimmie Page, David Crosby and every other rock star ever must thank heaven that they weren’t born 50 years later.

                                                        [–]fridaysaturday72 6 points7 points  (8 children)

                                                        He sent dick pics to 18 year old girls. Enough said. Fuck this guy.

                                                        [–]MtDiabloDeathMachine 5 points6 points  (7 children)

                                                        And? 18 = legal adult

                                                        [–]Olasg 7 points8 points  (3 children)

                                                        A guy over 40 sends pictures of his penis to basically a teenager. It might be legal but it’s not acceptable.

                                                        [–]TheraKoon 0 points1 point  (2 children)

                                                        When you are 40, I'm willing to bet half your porn content will involve teenagers. Being an older man doesn't mean you stop wanting to fuck young women.

                                                        Any person who tells you otherwise has an older woman fetish, is gay, or is lying, and probably into the real young ones. Men are attracted to younger women. Rockstars don't have to grow up and mature like the rest of us, so emotionally win butler was probably at a high school level well into his thirties.

                                                        [–]Olasg 2 points3 points  (1 child)

                                                        How does that excuse his behaviour, it’s still wrong.

                                                        [–]TheraKoon 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                                                        I see a faulted man having sex with young women because he has an endless sea of opportunity to do so. I see no criminal activity. Because of that, I don't give a fuck. Too many actual criminals out there to try and turn normal problems of a one sided game into the worst problem in the world.

                                                        [–]TrueCrimeRunner92 5 points6 points  (2 children)

                                                        Technically yes but that misses the point that a 30-something seeking out younger more vulnerable fans to sext/hook up with is creepy as hell, not to mention there is a distinct power differential. 18 year olds are in a VASTLY different life stage.

                                                        [–][deleted]  (1 child)

                                                        [deleted]

                                                          [–]12xubywire 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                                                          All this talk of power structures etc.

                                                          I have a question. Is a famous musician only allowed to hook up with other famous musicians..or someone of equal status? How can this be a thing?

                                                          I get it with doctors or teachers or coaches…people in a position of trust…but singer in your favourite band?

                                                          I m not understanding this.

                                                          [–][deleted]  (1 child)

                                                          [deleted]

                                                            [–]F_For_YouArcade Fire EP 6 points7 points  (0 children)

                                                            It’s the age old thing - people getting off on selfish egotistical power and control. Like celebs drunk driving when they could just easily get a driver to drive them somewhere. Putting everyone in harms way.

                                                            [–][deleted]  (11 children)

                                                            [deleted]

                                                              [–]Nikolaki8 10 points11 points  (6 children)

                                                              I understand the sentiment of “separate the art from the artist” but in practice, it makes almost no sense to me. Artists and lyricists, especially ones like Win, are their art. They wear their heart on their sleeves and put every fibre of their being into their music. It’s part of what makes records like Funeral and The Suburbs so special — there is pervasive sentiment of sincerity and vulnerability that runs throughout every second of these albums.

                                                              With this in mind, to then turn around and bemoan people who now find these brutally sincere songs about love to be problematic is just vexing. The now added context of Win’s hurtful actions and twisted perspective on love retroactively makes you reconsider his integrity, and that reappraisal includes his body of work and lyricism.

                                                              You can’t view an artist’s work holistically without considering who they were as a person and what they were going through at the time of a particular release. It’s often necessary to fully appreciate a piece of art. For example, Blackstar is so much more impactful and beautiful with the knowledge that it was Bowie’s swan song. This doesn’t mean you have to be aware of this information to enjoy the album or to be moved by it emotionally, but that context is certainly a key element to the legacy and character of the record. Another example is listening to songs like PYT with the context of Michael Jackson’s, let’s say ‘unconventional’ attitudes towards love. Even if you only believe what Jackson himself has said, that he finds sleeping in the same bed with children that aren’t his own to be a “beautiful thing”, it’s difficult not to perceive some of his back catalogue a little differently than one may’ve in the 80s or 90s.

                                                              The same can be said about Win and Arcade Fire’s music going forward. I don’t think it is necessary to factor in Win’s actions when listening to AF’s music going forward, nor do I think people should feel obligated to hate music they once loved because of this news. However I truly believe that to do so is to compartmentalise the greater context behind the work at hand.

                                                              [–]PurpleOwl85 1 point2 points  (4 children)

                                                              Many people can absolutely listen to music and not care or wonder why the artist wrote it.

                                                              You shouldn't be speaking for everyone like it's a fact.

                                                              Life and people are complex, the internet is taking away the mystery of everything.

                                                              I always assumed he was an asshole, most people are, especially with money and fame.

                                                              [–]Nikolaki8 1 point2 points  (3 children)

                                                              I’m not speaking for anyone but myself, in fact I started off my comment with this:

                                                              I understand the sentiment of “separate the art from the artist” but in practice, it makes almost no sense to me.

                                                              Life and people are complex, I agree, which is why I was making the point that people clamouring for Arcade Fire fans to ‘separate the art from the artist’ is a reductionist approach to analysing art. You lose a deeper understanding of the work if you just put your fingers in your ears and go ‘la la la la not listening la la la la’ when information about the wider context of the artist is brought to attention.

                                                              You might disagree with me, and that’s fine, but I’m not speaking for anyone but myself. I don’t think I could’ve made that any more clear in my original comment.

                                                              [–]lpalf 1 point2 points  (2 children)

                                                              Sure you said “I” and “me” in the opening paragraph, but the entire rest of your post is: “makes you reconsider his integrity…” “you can’t view an artist’s work…” “that doesn’t mean you have to be aware…” “even if you only believe…”

                                                              That definitely reads as prescriptive, like you know how other people should perceive art or relate to art in their lives. That’s probably why that person interpreted it as you stating your opinion as fact.

                                                              [–]Nikolaki8 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                                                              With all due respect, this is semantics that distracts from the actual conversation. I started and ended my comment using first person language and made it very clear that this is my opinion on things. The examples you've picked out of my original comment are meaningless out of context:

                                                              • The “...makes you reconsider his integrity..." quote is from me explaining why some people can't separate the art from the artist, so yes, in that instance, obviously I am speaking for those people. There's no conversation to be had otherwise.

                                                              • The “you can’t view an artist’s work..." quote continues with the word " holistically", which is a statement of fact. It is factually inaccurate to argue that a piece of art can be perceived holistically without paying mind to the artist who created it or the context in which it was created. That doesn't mean that you have to let these things influence your opinion on a piece of art, but if you want to look at it holistically, then those elements are not permissive.

                                                              • The "this doesn’t mean you have to be aware..." quote is not a prescriptive statement of fact. It's denoting that certain behavior is not necessary, which again, only serves to emphasise that I am not instructing people on how to interpret art. The exact opposite is true.

                                                              • The “even if you only believe…” quote eventually follows on with "...it’s difficult not to perceive", which again, is not a definitive statement of fact.

                                                              This is how people talk when they're trying to make a point. It may come across as authoritative but that doesn't mean it's prescriptive. Again, this is a frustrating exercise that distracts from the actual conversation at hand.

                                                              [–]lpalf 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                                              Was just trying to help

                                                              [–]Scarepwn[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                                                              For the record, I am not saying these albums need to be erased. I’m not saying these albums are retroactively bad. I am not saying Arcade Fire wasn’t an important part of the last 20 years of music.

                                                              Honestly, separating the art from the artist is up to each individual. I can do it in a critical sense, but not on a personal level. I don’t think I’ll be able to just casually throw on Reflektor again and enjoy it because anytime I hear their music, I imagine some poor woman opening up their phone to see a picture of Win’s dick.

                                                              AF’s music was important to many people and it was a large band with members who don’t have these allegations against them. If people can still enjoy this music, more power to them. I’m unfortunately not in that boat.

                                                              But that’s why I didn’t mention any of this in the post. Whether or not you still enjoy their music is a separate conversation and if you have to excuse is behavior in order to enjoy his music, then THAT is what I think is problematic.

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                                                                [–]123DanB 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                                                Arcade Fire was a heavy favorite of mine. Was nice while it lasted. Leaving this sub too.

                                                                [–]-PlayWithUsDanny- 1 point2 points  (3 children)

                                                                Hey OP, thanks for writing this whole thing out and putting it an easy digestible format. Based on some of the comments in this sub it’s clear a lot of people either didn’t read the article or just skimmed. Your primer is very helpful.

                                                                But one thing I think is worth noting and maybe making a correction to be more inclusive in your language. You kept mentioning the women that are accusing Win but one of the accusers is non-binary.

                                                                [–]Scarepwn[S] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

                                                                Hey! Can you point out where I used women? I tried to be very mindful of that and only used women or woman when referring to the people who identified as such. Otherwise I would use people.

                                                                I’d love to correct it, I just read through my post again and didn’t see where that error is.

                                                                I appreciate you keeping that in mind!

                                                                [–]-PlayWithUsDanny- 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                                                                I guess re-reading your comment you are technically correct. However, it was the sentence “none of these women knew each other before coming forward” that stuck out to me the most. While I guess it’s not explicitly exclusive to any specific part of the cohort, it does however seem exclusionary to the accuser who uses they/them pronouns as they are part of the whole and all the other elements of the sentence would apply to them as well but are excluded from the sentence by a single gendered word.

                                                                It’s not an egregious oversight by any stretch but saying “none of the people knew each other before coming forward” would be inclusive of all of the victims and not just a section.

                                                                Edit: added a couple words for clarity, and I also appreciate that you are being conscientious of this topic

                                                                Edit2: I accidentally first spelt ‘conscientious’ in my edit as ‘contentious’. Sorry if that was the version you first read but it’s fixed now to be accurate to my meaning.

                                                                [–]Scarepwn[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                                                You are totally right! Thank you for pointing that out.

                                                                No need to apologize or justify it. Gender expression is important and I want to make sure I get that right. Thanks for keeping an eye out!

                                                                [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children)

                                                                With all this discussion, I'm thinking about how society holds celebs on a pedestal. This is why and how the famous can feel powerful and that their actions don't matter. Win is not in the right and everything he did was 100% wrong. The other issue we have here is how people can be manipulated so easily by famous people because of societies of insane obsessions of celebrities. Win for sure acted like a predator, and used people, but these people also had relationships with him, knowing he was married and knowing who he is. He is absolutely in the wrong, but not everything with the stories is black and white. The person that was pushed against the wall and kissed said they thought Win thought it was sexy, but they didn't think it was, but they still had a relationship with him? That's the part I'm confused about. Maybe more info will come out. Still sickens me...

                                                                [–]Scarepwn[S] 8 points9 points  (2 children)

                                                                So a few things here.

                                                                1) It’s not just celebrities. We see this kind of manipulation all the time. Maybe it’s a mentor, a teacher, a boss, a family member. Sexual assault happens all the time with people we look up to and it can be a very similar dynamic. Someone you look up to and admire starts making requests you feel uncomfortable with, but you go along with it because you don’t want to disappoint them. It’s just more high profile with celebrities, but it’s something we see a lot.

                                                                2) I think it’s easy to dismiss that kind of influence if you’ve never been subject to it or have been taught how to properly navigate it. Personally, I’m a cis man. I have grown up in a society that regularly encourages me to take charge, confident, and to firmly advocate for my own wants. This means that I am very comfortable telling someone no if a situation is making me uncomfortable.

                                                                Many of the women in my life have a very different perspective. They were taught from a young age, both directly by family and more subtly by things like the media, that they need to be peacekeepers and sacrifice their own comfort for others. Sometimes it’s a self defense thing (e.g. if I say no to this man making advances, he might physically hurt me in anger). Other times it’s just a people pleasing thing (e.g. I’ll be uncomfortable, but it’s what this person wants).

                                                                I know that second option can sound like consent, but it’s still damaging. Setting boundaries is important and for many it’s a skill they have to learn and practice. Every woman or woman presenting person in my life has told me stories of doing something they didn’t want to do because of this very dynamic and for many of them, it is still an event that brings about pain and influences behavior.

                                                                It’s why they lock car doors when they drive or wait on the street with you until your car starts so you’re not alone for a moment.

                                                                Power structures are real and they are damaging by and they are complicated. Part of the reason why discussions like this need to happen is so we can all be more aware of their impact, how they present themselves, and how we can stop more people from getting hurt.

                                                                I hope that young musicians are reading these kinds of discussions, realizing how easy it is to wield that power recklessly, and the next generation of musicians don’t have nearly as many situations like this crop up.

                                                                [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

                                                                Yes agreed! Not only are women taught this but, for women my age we are taught to wait for a man to make advances! I was talking to my husband about this how there have been many times I can think of in high school where I have been sexually assaulted my boys, and brushed it off like that's just men. I'm happy to see some change in society we have a long time to get there but I do see small changes. I'm hoping we instill this in our young men and women. This situation has made me realize I had to have a convo with my 14 year old son on how to treat women. I mean I've always taught him women empowerment, kindness, boundaries, respectfulness etc but now our conversation dives deeper like when he has a girlfriend and how to be respectful. I'm also having the conversation with my daughter on to stand up for herself and confidence. Not saying these women didn't stand up or deserved, but like you said these convos are important.

                                                                [–]Scarepwn[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                                                                Glad to hear this is inspiring more IRL conversations!

                                                                [–]Charlotte_Sky 0 points1 point  (2 children)

                                                                They could have blocked him all girls get requests for nudes ALSO what they are mute & couldn't say NO?

                                                                Give me a break!

                                                                [–]Scarepwn[S] 4 points5 points  (1 child)

                                                                One of the women did block him on two separate numbers. He was literally reaching out to them via multiple phones after he was blocked.

                                                                [–]Charlotte_Sky 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                                                They could just block him again I do all the time & it's not that difficult. So maybe he was a bit jerky but OH WELL those girls 100% knew what they were doing

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