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[–]jakewang1 3582 points3583 points  (501 children)

A 2/8 irelia would have surely killed him.

[–]lovely_sombrero 1422 points1423 points  (313 children)

It isn't even a problem with damage. I am OK with Irelia doing lots of damage and being somewhat tanky at the same time, even when behind. The problem is that most champs have some kind of ultra-mobility that allows them to instantly gap-close to the ADC and do constant damage, kiting is gone in most cases. This sucks even more on Jhin, since his speed boost comes from crits and criting on shots 1-3 depends purely on luck until you have 100% crit.

IMO the ability of so many champions to quickly erase an ADC with their gap-close is what makes the entire team write-off their ADC in most teamfights and just makes everyone focus on doing even more damage to the opposing team.

P.s.: People are just comparing Kassa vs Jhin as a champ. If the game went just slightly better for Kassa and slightly worse for Jhin, Kassa would be one or two levels ahead even while losing the lane hard.

[–]wildarmed 820 points821 points  (191 children)

I remember putting so much time into kiting/"orb walking" when I first started this game. When you saw a really good ADC just kite out a team perfectly it was very clear that person was good at their role. Not I feel like every time I start a fight I get put to 1/4 and the kiting is out of sheer desperation to not get hit 1 more time so I can at least get 5-6 autos off before I am forced out of a fight.

[–]Inside_Explorer 440 points441 points  (51 children)

I was watching xFSN_Saber's stream a while ago and he went in to a team fight to start auto attacking enemies as Ashe and then just randomly noticed that he was at 40% health without getting hit by a single ability after just 3 or so auto attacks so he had to back off and go base to heal.

He freaked out in the middle of the fight yelling "Wait I'm below half health what's killing me?? I'm not getting hit by anything"

Then he went to watch the replay and what was killing him was just random driveby AoE effects like Luden's Echo and stuff like that, he got hit by 0 targeted abilities. It was pretty funny but absurd at the same time.

[–]tabben 216 points217 points  (17 children)

Yeah try playing Aram with adc against mages. Its like playing dodgeball, 1 hit and ur out

[–]hoo_god Thrill seeking marksman waiting room 16 points17 points  (9 children)

It's why most poke mages have damage nerfs and melees have + 10 mr, as an adc you win once you get lifesteal. Before then, :(

[–]FuujinSama 59 points60 points  (17 children)

Luden's echo is such a retarded item. What's the purpose of the splash damage? It's used by champions who already have AOE spells to give them even more splash? Does it need to exist?

It might affect wave clear breakthroughs on a few champions if they removed they could just buff it back. Between Luden's and comet you get hit by so much stuff that it's unlikely you could ever dodge for no reason whatsoever. Why aren't these effects just extra single-target damage.

I'm 99% sure that if Luden's was just single-target (perhaps instant) people would still buy it over Archangel's and GLP. You buy Luden's for the extra single target poke on most champions. The added splash is like 'luxury'.

Also, can we have a look at random slows and speed ups? It's like you're playing the game and suddenly you're slowed because a Rylais comet hit you and there's an Irelia running at you with 700MS because she has water-waking and Nimbus Cloak and a phage proc from trinity.

I feel like this game is at its best when you can reasonably predict everything that is happening and can account for most things that can kill you. Rylais splash with Liandry's burn into massively sped up champion that didn't even use a skill to get that fast? Like wtf.

Also, why are mage items so fucking cheap? Luden's is 3200, IE is 3400. Does IE scale better? Unclear. Most ADC's with 3-4 items are still getting burst by the mage with Luden's + sorc shoes + Oblivian and like a blasting wand.

I get it, ADC's can actually do something if the enemy locks in Ornn+Sion+Zac... if you had a full mage team against that shit you'd get ctrl+4'd as you died to sunfire. But kinda sucks when anyone that isn't a tank can kill you even if you have 2 items on them.

[–]Aladin001 13 points14 points  (4 children)

GLP is better on champs that don't require Ludens for waveclear

[–]PraiseTheStun 17 points18 points  (0 children)

clip please

[–]Shakitano 452 points453 points  (86 children)

Yup. Kiting has become such an unnecessary skill for ADCs, why bother doing it when most duels will be against someone that has so many gap-closers, he will always be melee range?

[–]Kyser_Bulllllettttssss 280 points281 points  (59 children)

I've been practicing to get near perfect kiting for years, but a lot of the time it's almost more worth it to just right click and put my hands on my head and hope for the best.

Along with some other changes, I would really like the return of something like Furor boots to make actual kiting more worthwhile. That enchantment used to be my favorite purchase in the game back in the day.

[–]Ergheis 125 points126 points  (2 children)

Unfortunately that was made by Xypherous and he was actually good at design, so they gave it all to CertainlyT

[–]prisN 36 points37 points  (0 children)

You just reminded me who that little Vlad icon rioter was. Was so nice reading all of his forums posts back in the day about champion design/game balance as a whole.

[–]publius101 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Now that's a name I haven't heard in a long time.

[–]raiyosss 95 points96 points  (21 children)

I loved furor. Made playing range really nice but I have to think that maybe riot pulled off all this gap closer bs because of how adc was able to actually have some semblance of agency back before every launch champion was getting reworked.

[–]TheMadWoodcutter 53 points54 points  (19 children)

I wonder what it would look like if they brought back boot enchantments. To be honest it would be nice to be able to put a bit more value into that item slot.

[–]cjmaddux 67 points68 points  (20 children)

Man I miss tier 3 boots. Homeguards as a top were so amazing. Still can't wrap my head around how removing them made the game "better"

[–]Kyser_Bulllllettttssss 52 points53 points  (3 children)

Yeah I don't get it either. Especially now that the early on death homeguards exists and teleport gives a free ghost for some ungodly reason.

I really liked the "you have to sacrifice something else for this" type of system that enchantments brought.

[–]CommanderTNT 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Modern league in a nutshell. Why not have everything always? Who needs meaningful itemization, with clear trade offs and alternative options? Who needs complicated runes and masteries?

Think inside the box. /s

[–]RTSUbiytsaLiquid Force 28 points29 points  (3 children)

My favorite thing on Ekko release was rushing Homeguards once you hit level 6, because you could recall, instantly heal off of Homeguards, and then ulti back to lane with full HP and just go all in on the other laner (who obviously didn't expect you back in lane any time soon.)

You had to like, pull up the shop and have your items queued cause if you took more than a few seconds you'd just ulti in place lmao

[–]I_usuallymissthingsI never compromise 10 points11 points  (1 child)

Here is the reason why it was removed

[–]C3ntra 3 points4 points  (0 children)

In other words: Ekko ruins everything (again)

[–]Oniichanplsstop 13 points14 points  (8 children)

Homeguards were removed to prevent "safe laning" on certain champs where you'd rush homeguards and base every wave after hard shoving. Basically ASol before ASol was in the game.

The other enchantments (Captain, fervor, alacrity, distortion) were removed later as a byproduct of Riot Olaf'ing Udyr.

6.3~ patch or so Udyr saw a couple games in LCK and NA LCS(3-4 tops IIRC) which prompted Riot to Olaf him. Nerfed turtle stance, phoenix stance, movespeed on items, etc. Still was a bit oppressive in solo q so they hit him again, and items again.

And then at mid season patch they removed boot enchantments completely in part because people were abusing early alacrity(like Udyr) to run people down, or Captain boots on their support/back liner to engage faster or disengage faster. Fervor got added to phage items for the most part, and Distortions were added to CDR boots.

[–]Simple_really 3 points4 points  (1 child)

captain boots janna was so insanely broken your team could retreat from anything and everything

[–]FabioSxO appartengo [S] 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Waste time doign this when u will never be able to do it

[–]grippgoat 17 points18 points  (4 children)

I find the risk of cancelling autos makes kiting not worth it quite often. It's usually not until late game when I have zerks and a couple zeal items that I feel like I can really kite consistently.

In HotS, if you click and release move, you can cancel autos. But if you click and hold move, it finishes the auto and then moves once the projectile is fired. It makes kiting so much easier and more consistent.

[–]ThePoltageist 14 points15 points  (1 child)

That mechanic is also what allows a good illidan to stick to you like a fly on shit and constantly body block you while doing damage.

[–]rtaSmash 23 points24 points  (20 children)

Unless you are playing Twitch or Ashe, dont even bother kiting honestly.

[–]nadejha 45 points46 points  (2 children)

Sivir is still amazing at kiting teams. With her passive, ult and spellshield.

[–]jjhassert 39 points40 points  (1 child)

It's still not kiting. It's running for my life

[–]tiuri9 10 points11 points  (5 children)

Thats why I love playing ashe, actually feels good to kite someone without them being at melee range anyways

[–]Inside_Explorer 33 points34 points  (4 children)

I've come to embrace Ashe not for the slow but for the Domination rune tree set up where I can get Ultimate Hunter and build Trinity + Essence Reaver for 40% CDR so I can be 0/5 but my ultimate has below 30 second cooldown at max level.

Who cares if I had a bad laning phase and don't do damage if I can ult a key target every 30 seconds and if my team bursts them down we win fights anyway. You can literally play a ganking champion where you just run around the map and arrow people, if you miss it's gonna be up in no time again.

I got this guild from xFSN_Saber's stream and it's pretty legit.

[–]CasualRascal 50 points51 points  (6 children)

I remember years ago on a different reddit account asking in /r/summonerschool about how to get better at kiting and a guy directed me to some old doublelift vids where DL was basically untouchable purely through mechanics alone.

Nowadays if you're in a position to kite, you're most likely already dead or about to be.

[–]RaiseYourDongersOP 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Yeah I still remember that one DL video where he was playing Vayne and he kited an Olaf and the rest of the team through the jungle

[–]Kyser_Bulllllettttssss 51 points52 points  (15 children)

Desperation is right. There's no thought that goes into a big fight anymore, you just think "fuck fuck fuck fuck" as you auto literally anyone you can possibly hit and hope for the best. Skill expression feels nonexistent.

I guess it's just a fact of life for an adc in an Assassin meta though. One day we'll have our tank meta and will be able to shine again I hope

[–]Yesnobanana ZOOMIES 29 points30 points  (8 children)

Tank metas are dead, enchanters metas are dead. Anything that will not make proplay shitfesty and "interesting" is long dead.

[–]NeoCortexOG 10 points11 points  (5 children)

No joke, i dont see why they just dont force pro play to be played in ARAM, since thats what they are trying to recreate on Summoners Rift. Like, just go through with it already.

Trying to stir the game towards its braindead side is not healthy, imagine football changing the rules in favor of "more excitement" and implementing something stupid like "If the score is 0-0 at half time both teams are not allowed to use their goalkeeper in the second half.

Thats how i feel about league changes for the past 2 years.

[–]CommanderTNT 4 points5 points  (0 children)

How can enchanters be valid in a world where Assassins and mages can kill most targets in a single combo even with shields and summoners? There's no peeling infinite gap closers either.

How can tanks shine, in a world where every character has some abritary tank busting feature and none of them scale at all? All the while competing with Juggernauts for job security, in which they will never win. You might as well just pick Sett. Tanks aren't going to live any longer than him, so might as well go for damage.

[–]Erundil420 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Same, i actually started maining ADC because i loved kiting in SC2 with ranged units like Stalkers, now it just feels like it doesn't matter most of the time

[–]valraven38 130 points131 points  (22 children)

I actually don't even think it's necessarily a problem with mobility creep, this has been a thing going on for years and isn't a new problem to the game. I think it's more of a change in how the entire game is played that is causing the real issue. The largest change I've noticed over time is, people just don't peel as much for the ADC as they use too, and it's because every other role has slowly crept up in carry power.

And by carry power I don't simply mean raw power, as in the ability to fight other champions. I mean in terms of objective control as well, before you use to need that Ashe/Cait/Ez/Vayne in order to effectively take turrets or large objectives, without them you didn't have the damage to secure these objectives in time if you won a team fight. Nowadays we have tanks/juggernauts with demolish who destroy turrets, or mages who just auto them and take them just as fast if not faster then Marksmen do. Mages and tanks also have slowly started to be able to at least decently take objectives like baron and such with the access to % health damage, and pretty easy access to CDR allowing most of them to cast abilities quite often when doing them.

The reality is, the marksman has just become a less important character to keep alive all the time. Yeah, it's nice if they stay alive and better players will peel for them but for most of the playerbase, Marksman aren't needed to close out games usually. We've had changes to improve top lane carry potential, and jungle carry potential, and mid items were overhauled and AP characters were given more damage to turrets, and supports were given access to more gold. All these changes over time have actually just devalued the marksman role in general play.

[–]Gwenavere Quinn it to win it. 84 points85 points  (15 children)

more of a change in how the entire game is played that is causing the real issue

A huge chunk of this is the pace of the game. I remember a post from a few weeks ago showing a video of a season 3 pro game and just how different everything played out--the game was much slower and more methodical, fights that would be decided in 5 seconds now took 20. That state of game play enabled marksmen ( a class whose strength has always been putting out sustained damage over a period of time) to deploy their strengths more consistently than they can now.

With early examples of mobility creep, it didn't so much matter if a champ could get onto you when they weren't going to one shot you and you had a chance to kite back and put out meaningful damage yourself. For the most part that just isn't possible now because of the sheer amount of damage champs can put out once they use the mobility tools that they do have.

AP characters were given more damage to turrets

This I think is the single biggest change that has hurt the importance of marksmen in the overall game. When the Diana or Kassadin or Neeko can effectively put out tower damage in a meaningful way, it's not so important to protect the Sivir who lost lane. I don't see a meaningful fix, either, short of taking a look at marksmen as a class and re-assessing what their strengths in the game ought to be--it may be that in the long run the class needs a significant revamp because the strengths that it provides are no longer important enough to justify its champions' weaknesses (although on the other hand, we do still see 2 marksmen in nearly every league game, so clearly we as players still do see value in having these champions on our teams).

[–]raiyosss 24 points25 points  (1 child)

Really I think people pick marksmen as an answer to tanks and to fill out damage spread.

On the first point, mages, despite all their benefits, struggle against tanks and teams usually get mad at adc if they arent able to deal with one due to having a ziggs. (Except liandries exists and there a ton of mages that shred tanks but still fuck adc I guess)

The second issue with damage spread is that without ad threats, people just stack mr and that means that mid cant just run the entire game, feeding into the first problem with the issue of tanks.

All in all, in pro play adcs are meta since most of the player base trusts the pro meta, adcs are picked without really thinking about the fact that they dont have a pro team level of peel and coordination.

I guess I also need to concede that there are some idiots like me that are stupid enough to like the role on the basis of having the challenge to live through all kinds of bs and provide dps. Bot lane during the laning phase a fiesta with constant dives, ganks and 2 v 2 action and I like that. Adc really is fine on a power budget level early but sneaky is right. They dont get jack for doing well compared to other lanes.

[–]CommanderTNT 3 points4 points  (0 children)

struggle against tanks and teams usually get mad at adc if they arent able to deal with one due to having a ziggs.

I would still be more afraid of a ziggs as most tanks than the average ADC imo. When you're playing something like Malphite they can bring as many Yasuos, Talons, ADCs of any flavor save Vayne, and it doesn't matter at all. ADC's can't even itemize armor pen until after finishing several other items, and then later have to somehow manage tank busting where almost ANYTHING can kill them instantly. Not to mention most tanks scale like hot garbage in current League anyway, as displayed by most tank win rates dropping significantly after 30 minutes. So by the time their building armor pen the game is already tilted one way or the other, and ADCs are just icing on the cake, they don't actually matter all that much anymore.

Meanwhile mages can stun lock a tank from a greater distance, can do so while running away, can spam abilities due to easy access to CDR, and can easily itemize Void staff whenever they feel like in most cases, which makes anything short of massive amounts of MR stacking irrelevant, which ultimately doesn't work anyway. They can also use Zhonya's if they mess up or position poorly, and be bailed out by someone else. Where as any AD champion has to rely on GA, which has double the cooldown, activates only on death, and doesn't randomly have CDR attached. In most cases tanks just itemize hp and armor despite how much AP they may have, because it will allow them to enable dives better, and just build average amounts of MR.

[–]Nybear21 5 points6 points  (1 child)

I remember the first pro game I watched had CLG's Saint Vicious play Smite/ Teleport Nunu

[–]pbcorporeal:naef: 8 points9 points  (0 children)

In soloq play I would say. In proplay there's still a lot of importance for adcs and a lot of peeling etc.

The problem riot have ended up with is how different solo and pro style ADCs are and trying to balance around two very different game states.

[–]ylarinz 67 points68 points  (11 children)

And don't even forget, if you get collapsed like that by hypermobile champions, it's your fault because you can't position. Sometimes I just hate my role

[–]huehuemul 53 points54 points  (3 children)

How dare you be unable to outmanouver the "immobile melee champ" that also happens to have a huge ms buff because of ghost/tp/phase rush/approach velocity/30% tenacity/60% slow resistance / predator / nimbus cloak / celerity / waterwalking / random skill from himself or ally/item that turns a snail into a fucking racecar? nevermind the fact that even if you outrange gapclosing skills by a few units, if you stop to autoattack once you get caught and fucked over.

[–]spaldingnoooo 13 points14 points  (1 child)

There's nothing worse than a "chase" comp as I call them. A comp with 3 or 4 champs that have MS stims and gap closers and you will never escape a bad engage. Yuumi is the worst enabler of this because she gives a bruiser an MS stim/heal/and a slow. It's just extremely frustrating to play against.

[–]Spiduscloud 9 points10 points  (4 children)

My favorite part is when you’re doing okay in game but the zed/kayn/diana ect gets strong and you can be in the back of the fight and they find you its your fault. Kayne is really the worst offender of this esp blue kayne with lethality/yuumi , oh its my fault the blue kayne with 1.3 k movement found me in the back of yhe team fight. With 0 peel

[–]TempusVenisse 12 points13 points  (3 children)

Lol peeling blue Kayn. If he sneezes in your direction he can ult you and if he can ult you then you are dead as adc.

[–]grippgoat 13 points14 points  (4 children)

It's not just the gap closers. It seems like every champ with a gap closer has a slow or speed buff to stick. And if there isn't one in their kit, they can itemize into it.

[–]huehuemul 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Even if they're dumb enough to not itemize for it, the support can build shurelyas as a crutch to catch you anyway. Or spooky ghosts from mid/support with glacial augment for the free, effortless catch.

[–]Sayko77 104 points105 points  (181 children)

irelia has a great kit to 1v1 any champion in the game. if it was irelia and she killed him i'd not be mad. Jhin is really a bad fighter when it comes to 1v1 situations.

[–]I_Faced_The_Wind 21 points22 points  (2 children)

Ok but we aren't talking a 5/0 Jhin vs. a 2/3 Irelia or whatever. This is a 15 kill carry with 1 fucking death vs. a 2/7 kassadin, and kassa would probably have killed if Skarner didn't show up or if sneaky had taken the armour rune. Kassa was literally .5 seconds from another R which would have been a kill. This is fucking stupid, what happened to "Anyone looks OP when fed" Jhin is fed, and doesn't look anywhere near "op".

[–]Yasuchika 53 points54 points  (32 children)

Still, the difference in kills is so big that this shouldn't be anywhere near this close.

[–]ReturnOfBenjenRyanThe Notorious 51 points52 points  (134 children)

Yeah same way in another thread where the guy (He was an Aphelios, 5/1) complained about getting shit on by the Jax (1/5) while being 2 levels up. Obviously the scaling 1v1 champ will shit on certain champions despite being behind after a certain point.

[–]kakaleyte 2281 points2282 points  (302 children)

You know what's funny about this clip? Sneaky had +8 MR rune. Without it, he would have been dead. LUL

jhin at level 14 has 36.05 base MR and +8 from runes. And PD gives him 440 shield at level 14. Popped instantly.

Kassadin's 1100 gold broken as fuck +18 Mpen boots basically negates jhin's MR. For whatever reason LUL

[–]WhereAreDosDroidekas 994 points995 points  (240 children)

This is the crux of why Hashinshin is always ranting about why mages are broken

Mr itemization has sucked for eons. Sorc boots oblivion orb basically invalidates all the mr a standard champ will get from runes levels and items. Of the dedicated mr items most dont fit into champs standard builds.

Sure, most conq bruisers can easily work in a spirit visage, but for adc its rarely that simple. You cant just buy a tank item, you won't have the damage to do your job. Not every adc is a good user of wits, maw, or deatha dance.

It's just frustrating that magic pen is so gold efficient and runes reforged took away so many basic defensive stats while adding lots of damage.

[–]RoundRob73 403 points404 points  (4 children)

This is the crux of why Hashinshin is always ranting about why mages are broken


[–]Randomd0g 90 points91 points  (86 children)

There are several entire ROLES without a good MR item, and yet one of the core items for any mage is MPen boots - with them probably also picking up another pen item later.

[–]SirRichardTheVast 18 points19 points  (81 children)

What roles?

[–]Belyosd 34 points35 points  (30 children)

every role? MR tank items feel so garbage compared to armor tank items for example. every part-item for MR tank items is garbage, but for armor tank items there's bami's with the aura+cc damage, bramble vest with the grievous wounds, wardens mail with the attack speed slow. MR tank items only have spectres cowl which sucks.

[–]ThatRaggedyMan 7 points8 points  (2 children)

This is the real problem. MPEN is too damn cheap and too damn strong. It absolutely pops adcs. Either give ADs some more MR per level or nerf MPEN.

They literally changed Armor Pen into lethality because it was too broken as a flat stat. Yet MPEN has remained untouched. It’s ridiculous.

[–]Zalvian22 436 points437 points  (30 children)

The problem with adc is that mobility creep destroyed the role. In a game like league, high mobility needs to be carefully given to 10% or less of the champs in order for a glass cannon class such as adc to ever have a chance. It shouldn't be possible to draft 3 different easy to execute gap-closers. You should be punished for choosing multiple champions with gap closers. Riot focused on making all new champs more fun for people and completely ignored the nightmare that mobility creep has caused in order to make you buy the new champs and their skins

[–]KaristompInteractive Gameplay Expert 58 points59 points  (4 children)

Riot focused on making all new champs more fun for people

to watch. Flashy things make flashy plays, and flashy plays attract people.

[–]Zalvian22 14 points15 points  (1 child)

But doesnt make for balanced gameplay. At some point you have to show that you respect your playerbase beyond "look at this fun thing to watch" and actually let them enjoy it

[–]KaristompInteractive Gameplay Expert 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Could you go to Riot and preach it, brother?

[–]FabioSxO appartengo [S] 81 points82 points  (5 children)


Why even train to do this when the place you can do it is only in your dreams?

[–]Belckan 6 points7 points  (3 children)

Why even train to do this

Because it isn't possible outside of test play

[–]AchtelnoteCertified Soyboy 4 points5 points  (2 children)

3 axes are easily possible and 4 axes are possible but requires practice.

[–]Eliothz 8 points9 points  (1 child)

The sole reason i stopped playing ranked, it has turned into a game of mobility x kiting where the champions i love to play simply don't get to have a chance at competing.

[–]l0st_t0y 19 points20 points  (0 children)

I quit playing League for that reason. So many new champs and remakes overtime brought so much mobility it ruined champions I enjoyed playing. I applaud people who still have the patience to deal with current champion design and play ranked games everyday.

[–]Raslik 1909 points1910 points  (108 children)

The fact that he's 15/1/10 233cs and same level as midlaner 2/7/3 188cs delivers the true 200 years of experience experience.

[–]el_clapo 662 points663 points  (43 children)

playing ADC is like starting a 100 m race from 120 m distance, you are by default always behind, even if you CS perfectly with no deaths and the solo laners do the same, they will be 2-3 levels up on you.

"b--b-ut you scale as an ADC", said the Kassadin main.

[–]PowerOffDeathV2 136 points137 points  (51 children)

The fact that he's 15/1/10 233cs and same level as midlaner 2/7/3 188cs delivers the true 200 years of experience experience.

Well if sneaky is playing aram mid while kassa is splitting getting solo xp its rather normal he has more no?

[–]Raslik 86 points87 points  (8 children)

Well we don't have the whole context of the game so we can only assume. However considering Kassadin got 45 less cs and 7 deaths, it's probably not how it went. You have to consider the fact that a Grandmaster player (even NA level Grandmaster) would probably manage to have more cs if all he did was farm solo lane.

[–]PowerOffDeathV2 23 points24 points  (0 children)

If you look at his comp its a 1-3-1 / 1-4 comp depending on how skarner is doing.

Which implies sneaky is with his support most of the time. Or atleast that would be the correct way of playing.

Also looking at the most likely thing to have happend is that kassa lost lane which would explain his low cs numbers but as long as he stays in xp range and goes sidelane he will always have solo xp. Where as sneaky is sharing it.

[–]Adarkes01 777 points778 points  (50 children)

“But Kassadins a scaling champ”.

The problem is he’s not scaling, the dude fed. The other glaring problem is you know what else is a scaling champion? A crit marksman.

[–]Aseru 1378 points1379 points  (308 children)

A lot of people already pointed out things like "An assassin should be able to fight an ADC when they are the same level", "Kassa got the suprise attack on Sneaky" and "It's a scaling champ with 2 finished scaling items".

The problem i see here, is that THEY ARE THE SAME LEVEL...

With how fed Sneaky is and how poorly the game went for Kassa we can assume that Sneaky is about 2 levels higher than he should be and Kassa is 1-2 levels lower than he should be.

Now think about the fact how much it took for a snowballing ADC to reach the same level as a poorly performing midlaner.

Reverse the situation and you have a level 16 Kassa vs a level 12 Jhin... no1 would ever question that, that Kassa could not just kill Jhin but his whole team without anny effort.

The thing that is screwed are clearly the exp gains.

Edit: Can't believe how half of the answers i get, are still about the fact that Kassa should win 1v1 (which people don't seem to notice he didn't) when my whole point was that, after how this game went, these 2 champs shouldn't be on the same level and how fucked up the exp gains are since the changes.

[–]mikharv31 356 points357 points  (14 children)

Agreed ever since the XP changes in the bot lane, it’s felt bad. I feel if they have a little of the XP back for when you’re 1 lvl down by the time mid is lvl 6 rather than being 2 levels down. Being level 4 and you see enemy mid/top be level 6 or 7 just feels bad.

So give bot back some XP and give us new items

[–]Glaiele 123 points124 points  (3 children)

The xp changes are why nocturne and talon got popular mid. It's extremely easy to hit level 6 and just ult bot for a double kill as they likely haven't backed yet to buy up anything, are out of pots etc and then you can just snowball super hard since that's what those champs are designed to do anyways. There's really nothing you can do if a level 6 nocturne ults your level 4 adc whose likely 70-80 percent hp. They just die without any real thing you can do.

[–]GetattorexEULCS 257 points258 points  (16 children)

I think you hit the nail with this comment. Its something i've been thinking for a while already.

how much it took for a snowballing ADC to reach the same level as a poorly performing midlaner.

Its just this.

The effort it takes for an ADC to accomplish similar stuff as other roles is SO DAMN HIGHER

Edit: grammar, kind of

[–]MegamanEXE79 99 points100 points  (8 children)

it's because Riot wants to desperately sell the narrative that "ADC is constantly playing on a knife's edge" for the sake of pro play highlights.

[–]haywardgremlin64 134 points135 points  (4 children)

When the only two game states for ADCs are "get deleted" or "play 2-3x harder than everyone else to go even," there almost isn't a sensible reward any more. You either surrender your body to the outplay gods, or pivot into a different role for a higher winrate.

And even if you enjoy self-reflecting in your monochrome existence, overclocking your G-fueled mind, leafing through every possible timeline you didn't hold Flash that could have won you that fight.

There's always those sounds...

Each time you underestimate their 0/3 midlane, you snap the rubber band. You know you have to respect that skillshot, to do otherwise is nothing more than folly. All of the first ten minutes, fifteen minutes, twenty minutes, all undone by 600g wrapped in a snug little bow.

It cries out, but your focus must be unwavering. You can't afford to get caught out next time.

Next game starts and -- oh look! Instead of a mirrored equal, they have Syndra! Their team won't have consistent dps for teamfights, and she tends to fall off later anyways, so all we have to do is let them push, play back and farm under tower. The wave has met in the middle when Syndra hits Level 6 and you now get Ball-Scatter-Ulted whenever she thinks you're encroaching on her social distance circle. But fret not! You only get dropped for about for 60% of your health if you dodge the first wrench, and 75% if you don't. So you probably live with good positioning.

The wave crashes and color is uninvented.

Just like many times before, out of the deepest cracks of your mind, those soft, familiar distractions are promptly sealed away brick-by-brick.

As the final stone is laid, color returns, and the exterior walls of your hyperbolic time-chamber are once again whole, a whisper slips between the cracks:

"I could be playing Irelia."

[–]FGThePurp 14 points15 points  (0 children)

This is so similar to what brought me to league from SC2. I switched around the end of Wings of Liberty because I was so sick of losing TvZ infestor/broodlord. It’s really unfun to feel like you have to work so much harder on your micro to even have a chance.

[–]delahunt 106 points107 points  (0 children)

Yeah, except they moved it so the knife edge is way the fuck over there. You have to be doing extremely well to even find the knife's edge to dance on.

[–]TadikenSivir Bot 65 points66 points  (10 children)

All of what you're saying is true and to add:

1: ADC items suck donkey balls and only make a difference at 2 and 5+ items. An adc with 3-4 items is about as powerful as one with 2 items because you get the initial stats you need to function from two items, however, you don't really fill out your item synergy until you get to 5.

2: Items in general are almost irrelevant compared to levels. Most 2 item champions would manhandle a 4 item champion if the 2 item champion had a 16 to 12 level lead.

[–]ssuurr33 12 points13 points  (1 child)

You hit the problem right on.

League is incredibly imbalanced, and most of those imbalances came to ruin adc's. One could argue that the mobility creep has a lot to do with it and it does, but items are the biggest culprit here.

Itemization is so so bad for adc's. Every single champion builds the same or a variation of the same build. There's a lack of stat items with powerful, game impacting actives that could really help adc's.

Let's take a look at Dota 2 as an example.

Black King Bar (offers hp and attack damage) - Grants Spell Immunity. Duration decreases with each use. Duration: 10/9/8/7/6/5 with a 70 second cooldown.

Imagine this item in league, all of the sudden, adc's are free to participate in team fights without fearing they'll just get one shotted by that LeBlanc or die to residual aoe damage. They now have 10 to 5 seconds where they stand their own ground, fearing nothing but auto attacks. They won't be stunned, silenced, rooted or anything of the sort as well. This is BIG.

You could argue that some brawlers would love to build this item and that it would be completely broken in champions like irelia and I would agree with you.

So, let's change it, make it be just like maw of malmortius, make it automatically proc when you get bursted, but instead of a shield, make it turn you immune to every spell. You're now low on hp, but if that pesky assassin wants to finish his job he has to auto attack you to death, and now you're on even playing ground as they have most likely burned their gap closer to get to you, you can now use yours to get distance and hit then with AA's of your own which is what you do best.

If brawlers build it, they only get immune to spells after being low on hp, which in turn makes the item absolutely key to adc's but viable and balanced on everyone else.

Items like this is exactly what league needs to bring in order to make adc's able to compete.

[–]SapphireLance 875 points876 points  (99 children)

ADCs are told to play PERFECTLy and then they get to carry. While other champions are allowed to make dozens of mistakes and do just as well.

[–]GetattorexEULCS 588 points589 points  (43 children)

You can play perfectly as an ADC and still lose, tbh.

[–]DizzystyleEUPHORIA 140 points141 points  (21 children)

That's why I quit playing adc 2 seasons ago.

[–]Vertrixz 109 points110 points  (16 children)

That's why I've quit playing league except for fun game modes. I can play as well as I possibly can but it means nothing because a mid laner can play half as well and have more than twice the game impact.

Sucks cuz I love playing ADC champions the most.

[–]AyyyyyyyLemao 26 points27 points  (9 children)

That's why I quit league. It's no longer fun anymore. Oh well it was a good 10 years while it lasted

[–]Insecticide 17 points18 points  (6 children)

While other champions are allowed to make dozens of mistakes and do just as well.

First champion that came to mind was Syndra missing everything and pressing R

[–]BubBidderskins 392 points393 points  (71 children)

One thing that Sneaky isn't even really touching on is that Kassadin hasn't even built glass cannon. He's done the greedy scaling Kassadin build of going RoA + Seraph's that also gives him a bunch of survivability, and he has 600 gold sunk into armor that isn't damaging Sneaky at all -- he still has nearly enough damage to kill the super fed Jihn with PD. IMO it's perhaps even more egregious than Sneaky is making it out to be.

[–]Pandarandrist 152 points153 points  (30 children)

RoA + Seraph's is the highest damage 2 item combo that Kass could have at this point, I imagine. It also gives him a fuck-ton of effective health.

I really think that's the story of this clip. Kass has excellent scaling survivability PLUS damage items. ADCs do not have those.

[–]unseenspecter 57 points58 points  (16 children)

Patch 10.12 = New item: Sword of Ages - Basically RoA but for AD.

Hahaha who am I kidding, ADCs in 2020 lol

[–]Snowy886 15 points16 points  (15 children)

gives scaling HP AD and mana? that would just be a bruiser item

[–]zzzxxx1209381 58 points59 points  (32 children)

and he has 600 gold sunk into armor that isn't damaging Sneaky at all

30 Armor helps him survive against Jhin....

[–]Dillman926 235 points236 points  (55 children)

solo lane exp and strength is too high, ADC agency is too low. A role should not need to be fed af just to have a shot.

[–]Bukake_Baron 565 points566 points  (167 children)

Holy shit the comments here are something else. Just imagine guys that instead of Jhin we have 15/1 mage/tank/assassin/cannon minion, kass would get instagibbed or he wouldn't deal any dmg (both if it was a bruiser).

[–]MrsKatara 681 points682 points  (21 children)

Clip of fed non-ADC getting insta-gibbed: gg riot 200 years of experience smh

Clip of fed ADC being instagibbed: puts on glasses AAAAAACTCHUALLY if he did not get hit by that caster minion 15 seconds ago, took second wind, got 2 more hours of sleep so his mental was in an ideal state, gave that homeless person 50 more cents than he did for maximum good Karma and streamed the latest LOONA album he would have lived for another second or two. Deserved, next. Nerf ranged tops with 0.005% pick rate btw!!!!!

[–]GetattorexEULCS 196 points197 points  (2 children)

Clip of fed non-ADC getting a pentakill: "You played, well, bit it was easy penta, you were fed"

Clip of a fed (and not regular fed, very super mega archi fed) ADC almost winning a 1 v 1 against a really behind scalind mid laner: "Of course, assassins are supposed to do that!!"

[–]LOMOcatVasilii 16 points17 points  (1 child)

on the front page is a stolen penta from Jax that Noc stole.

He might be fed out of his mind or whatever, but the point is he made so many small mistakes (like completely wasting his E) that if an ADC made they'd be dead in 1 sec. Yet no one is commenting on that. It sticked so hard for me watching the clip.

[–]GetattorexEULCS 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Oh you see, but jax doesnt have unavoidable long range dps, so its fine! /s

[–]HoneyBadger_plzKaisa is Waifu 27 points28 points  (9 children)

Honestly, I've said this before back when it was hot to complain about Aphelios.

People hate Aphelios because he is one of the only adcs that could actually be fed and hold his own. And ADCs arent allowed to do that apparently

[–]dexterminate 10 points11 points  (1 child)

Not just Aphelios, in almoust every split, there are 2-3 adcs that are better than the rest, and they keep getting gutted. During summer expect a lethality varus nerf, deathsdance ez nerf, maybe kalista, during spring there were mf, senna, aphelios, all gutted, post worlds, xayah, kaisa, gutted. For 2019 my memory isnt the best, but i know there was a version of gunblade ez that got him nerfed, sivirs w ratio went from 60 to 30%, manaflow lucian got his w gutted.

I guess with an already limited champion pool in adc role its easier to spot those who are performing well in that role, but with the constant nerfs of those champions they left the role as a whole in a horrible spot

[–]Qwertdd 11 points12 points  (3 children)

I think that was part of it. I think most of it was people legitimately refusing to learn what Aphelios does and getting really mad at the game for being complex instead of being mad at themselves for not trying to learn it.

Remember that clip of fucking LS saying "I have to cast tomorrow and even I don't know what Aphelios does!" and people were pointing to it like it was damning evidence against Aphelios? It's literally that guy's fucking job to know this game and he couldn't be bothered. I had it mostly down just reading the prerelease article, then played a bot game and was good.

[–]Ghettoblaster1945 53 points54 points  (4 children)


OmFg JuNgLe So BaD

AdC iSnT wEaK, yOu ArE jUsT tOo BaD tO pOsItIoN uRsElF

[–]HotDogGiraffe 8 points9 points  (3 children)

Why u got to bring jungle into this man :(

[–]UchihaYash 4 points5 points  (2 children)

Well, technically speaking they nerfed botlane XP in first place to dissuade Jungle ganks and nerf Jungle indrectly at the start of S10.

But for some reason rito forgot this and buffed back Jungle XP but kept bot lane XP nerf. So in the end Botlane was the one that was effectively nerfed for god knows what reason.

[–]ACOblivion_ 33 points34 points  (1 child)

A 15/1 tank would unironically oneshot both, then regen all its health back after the next wave.

[–]FabioSxO appartengo [S] 202 points203 points  (123 children)

It's ok man, ADCs AAs are undodgeable (let's not talk about Fizz E, Yasuo W, Zhonya, Jax E, etc)

[–]theman1203 144 points145 points  (53 children)

Cass e that outrangeds most adc lol

[–]RafixBlue 68 points69 points  (25 children)

most spells and dashes are at least at range that will allow you to hit adc when he tryes to aa :V

[–]theman1203 91 points92 points  (22 children)

Talons gap closer is 550 range lool legit to aa talon you are putting yourself in danger to being killed in 0.03 seconds

[–]WhereAreDosDroidekas 43 points44 points  (20 children)

Rengoon leap is similar. Though if you're ADC vs fed Rengar you just accept it.

[–]Foogie23 41 points42 points  (13 children)

I love Rengar. Nothing makes me happier as an adc than going 5-0 in lane and coming out to a 2-0 Rengar one shooting me because my team gets PTSD and runs away when they hear his ult go off.

[–]FleecelinedTortoise 27 points28 points  (6 children)

Rengar is so stupid because you can't even save the adc if he decides to jump in. You can only threaten to revenge kill rengar and hope he decides it's not worth it.

[–]Solagnas 3 points4 points  (3 children)

Whenever I'm adc vs rengar I just build Randuin's.

There's probably a better way to handle it, but fuck it, it works for me.

[–]juulsquad4lyfe 20 points21 points  (3 children)

Or an 0/3 rengar. They’ll still one shot you.

[–]Symphony_of_SoD 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Did you know jax' Q leap strike has range of 700, only select a few adcs (with either abilities of rfc) can auto attack him safely

[–]Yesnobanana ZOOMIES 36 points37 points  (23 children)

Cass E is 600

Ashe is equal, Senna is equal, Cait is 650. Thats it.

All others are outranged.

edit :Its all incorrect, Cass E is 700 and not 600. All heil Cassiopeia, queeen of long range DPS, first among the mage botlaners.

[–]ariel12333 13 points14 points  (4 children)

Isnt there the center to center cast when talking about spells and edge to edge when talking about autos thus the effective range of cass is more of 550~ making it on par with normal adcs?

[–]rainydevil7 26 points27 points  (7 children)

cass e is 700 range, not 600


[–]dil3ttante 쵸비 데프트 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Cassio's E Range is Center-to-Center while Auto Attacks are Edge-to-Edge. Cassio's E Range is actually 575 (Equivalent to Varus) when compared to Edge to Edge.

[–]pk_9 26 points27 points  (2 children)

Only adc’s that can outrage that besides Caitlyn traps are Jinx rank 5 Q, Kog rank 5 W, and a really stacked Senna...

[–]theman1203 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Yeah that's my point lol and senna is a 'supp' and then 3 adcs can surpass that range but not all the time it's pretty fucked then you add in she doesn't need to buy boots lol

[–]TheLegendDevil 76 points77 points  (35 children)

Also dont forget akali, shaco, rengar, quiana etc. BuT aDcS aRe FiNe, YoU cAnT dOdGe ThEiR aAs.

[–]FabioSxO appartengo [S] 43 points44 points  (32 children)

just flash before they go on u!!!

[–]minecraftgod4441 76 points77 points  (28 children)

just buy qss maw and ga before your core items

[–]Blazing117 71 points72 points  (9 children)

Meanwhile the Jhin in another thread got flamed by buying Zhonya against Rengar who can oneshot him repeatedly.
Also I truly enjoy the cycle logic of:

ADC don't buy defensive item

"You deserve to get one-shotted greedy bastard, itemise better."

ADC buy defensive item

"Stupid monkey, you deal no damage because you bought defensive items, itemise better."

[–]GenocideLolicons 49 points50 points  (13 children)

Nothing triggers me more than when Redditors act like buying a defensive item + mercs/tabi (+ ideally also rush executioners because Morellos is so expensive!!!!) is the solution to all of ADC's problems

Gee thanks, how did I never think of that!!! Now excuse me while I fart out several thousand pieces of gold so I can buy 3 core items and actually deal a non-negligible amount of damage!

[–]Bukake_Baron 16 points17 points  (0 children)

As are all point-click abilities and skillshots on cc'ed targets (bonus points if your other spell is hard cc) or even abilites with huge-ass aoe. Not to mention that most ADC don't have any form of dash/blink and have to rely on low base movement speed.

[–]FaeeLOL 37 points38 points  (4 children)

Like yea, they are undodgeable, but that is why you play around their range. That is the entire point. ADC's basically have like an 500-700 unit aura around them that deals damage to single target. If people started to look it in that light, they might start to realize it is not that hard to play around. There are literally thousands of games with similar mechanics. A damage threat with effective range that you need to either disable or play around. And it is very doable to do so.

It is actually relatively easy to dodge the damage an adc does. Just stay away from their range. They are a moving aoe field of damage. Fucking dodge it until you can either sustain that damage or disable the center of it. If fucking WoW players can deal with a mechanic like that, so should LoL players. The stupidity blows my mind. It is massively easier to dodge the damage an adc can deal when compared to something with shitloads of mobility and engage tools.

[–]Rohloff11 105 points106 points  (59 children)

I love how the only argument there is well you are supposed to keep your range. Yes that's true but do you realize how hard that is when pretty much every character in the game has some gap closer, movement speed buff, or even a movement speed slow. Quite a few champions also have abilities that out range champion auto so they can hit me with them without me being able to return damage. Now factoring that in let's say I want to kill an adc and my gap closer or other ability that will help me get closer is down, what do I do? I walk at said adc. Now an adc as the right click in order to produce damage which is also how you move your champ. So if you are sending out an auto you are not moving and vice versa. A great adc will be able to weave autos and moving to maximize dps while repositioning. If I'm doing that and they are just walking at me they close the distance. If they get on you, they will kill you unless you get help. That's why some fights you see an adc a ways from the team fight because they got chased off and just had to turn tail and exit.

[–]caut_R 288 points289 points  (40 children)

At this point we can agree that people simply hate the ADC role out of spite. Reading some of the stuff in the comments section is just bewildering. ADCs simply shouldn‘t be able to be strong and carry a game no matter how fed, that‘s the popular opinion.

[–]advanceshipper 16 points17 points  (0 children)

I'm a mid main and I agree. ADC is weak as fuck. I used to play mid supp, then switched to mid adc b/c i couldn't carry as supp in season 5. i switched back to mid supp season 9 b/c when i did play adc i had "play like a bitch" beaten into me. The only adcs i am willing to play if i have to play that role (most of my friends are top/jg/mid mains) are ezreal (b/c ranged poke and free flash), kaisa (always hybrid into ap), and xayah (r is nice). Even if I go 10/0 in lane i have no impact on the game as adc. i can feed as mid and get gold from almost any adc regardless of how they're doing if they dare to be alone in vision. it's ridiculous.

[–]AxiomQ 39 points40 points  (13 children)

I remember a time in season 6 (might have been pre season) after the big ADC changes where a lot of them got big adjustments. ADCs were as strong as mid laners, they could still be beaten but their output was as good. Well, it lasted about 3 weeks and then Riot nerfed them all down into the same state they had been before, and it's been downward ever since.

So long as the precious golden lane doesn't get their shit kicked in it is all okay, oh and heaven forbid junglers lose out on experience and have to play champions with more utility again and not just simply assassins or Gragas. Heaven fucking forbid they get fucked for more than a month, that shit is for ADC and top to endure for years.

[–]crowley_yo - JOIN THE GLORIOUS EVOLUTION - 43 points44 points  (7 children)

Its OK for mid laners like Yasuo, Syndra, Veigar to be in "ADC" role, but for ADC to be viable MID for minutes is completely unacceptable.

[–]bonesnaps Bird up 13 points14 points  (2 children)

Truth. The second you play a marksman in mid or top lane, expect everyone to lose their minds and berate the player as much as humanly possible.

Something something, Vayne top. REEEEEE

[–]Qwertdd 15 points16 points  (1 child)

The amount of seething Vayne Top or Lucian Mid gets when ADCs who bitch about the gigacancer Taliyah, Brand, or Vladimir botlanes are told to adapt to the meta is fucking disgusting.

[–]Newfypuppie 9 points10 points  (1 child)

end of s8 preseason after ardent nerfs was the best time to play ADC. Enchanters were strong but not overbearing and most things were viable.

[–]ManiKattiRight click the fkin lantern 26 points27 points  (0 children)

I think there is only one thing that is unfair but it's not in this particular 1v1.

Why isn't the 15/1/10 champ with 40cs up higher level than the 2/7/3 champ?

Of course ADC share their XP with their support and in mid lane and fights with others as well as they are important around objectives and team fights.

However, if this was a 15/1/10 40cs up Mid Laner, he'd have been level 18 killing everyone and the ADC would probably be level 12.

[–]Xinexz 169 points170 points  (27 children)

Leave this thread. It's all shit.

[–]mkwstar 22 points23 points  (9 children)

MR itemization is so goddamn terrible

[–]darkcloud385 19 points20 points  (0 children)

Keep thinking about that one post on reddit that said adcs aren’t weak and if you die to someone you’re positioning wrong or should never be in that situation even if you’re fed and the other guy isnt

Like yes, I should have to play perfectly to not get bodied by their 2/7 mid laner when I’m 6/0

[–]warjatos 65 points66 points  (11 children)

The mental gymnastics of this sub is something else.

[–]Cameron653April Fools Day 2018 24 points25 points  (3 children)

Riot is just feeding into it, look at Phreaks reply above, he's saying that it's his fault for 1v1ing the kassadin, lmao.

[–]Qwertdd 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Amazing how people suck off Riot employees when Riot says what they wanna hear. Don't forget, Phreak worked at riot during Season 8. Where's all the goodwill then?

[–]BestRightClickWorld 405 points406 points  (170 children)

It's disgusting how ppl here are defending the situation with the same crappy reasoning they echo like a parrot.

[–]CorganKnight 146 points147 points  (67 children)

Sure, next time lets put this jhin with those items facechekin into a rengar with duskblade and edge of night, lets see how that plays out for jhin...

[–]LTKokoroMaxlore is bae 72 points73 points  (21 children)

and we can next time put the rengar with duskblade and EoN vs ornn, there are some matchups which are yknow unfavored

[–]Pantherofleague 63 points64 points  (8 children)

Are we pretending that a 15 kill rengar wouldn't destroy a 2/7 orn?

[–]GLGMisclick 25 points26 points  (3 children)

As it should. Rengar is designed to deal with squishy long range champions with lack of self peel. If he couldn't do that, he could simply not exist

[–]iamwussupwussup 18 points19 points  (0 children)

I'm okay with him not existing, it would give me a ban back.

[–]falkner98 79 points80 points  (34 children)

the amount of people in the comment not knowing the difference between 2 items and 4 items is a joke

unless they are telling me mage items needed to be nerfed a ton to be as efficient as adc item

[–]GetattorexEULCS 74 points75 points  (4 children)

They even highlight "two SCALING items".

As if jhin items were cheap or something

[–]agraha10 383 points384 points  (130 children)

The mental gymnastics being performed in this thread are incredible. A 15/1/10 champion should beat a 2/7/3 champion in a 1v1 EVERY SINGLE TIME. Tired of hearing the same stupid shit pedaled "oh but adc's aren't strong in 1v1 and kassadin is a scaling assassin and Sneaky misplayed." Why is it okay that one player can play the game 99% perfectly, and the other player can play terrible for the entire game and STILL have a chance to win the 1v1 just because of the champions involved in the situation? If that isn't imbalance I don't know what is. How anyone can look at this and not see a problem is beyond me.

[–]ModularSpaceGirl 110 points111 points  (15 children)

Before I say anything else, I just wanna say I agree completely that the massive discrepancy between the 2 champions should not fall out like this.

That being said, this is a Kassadin favored situation, heavily in fact, as Jhin's range is completely negated, as is his kiting from his movement speed, both of these 2 things are a large part of his power budget. Jhin also is much bursty/go-in-go-out type of ADC with a fixed attack speed, compared to say a tristana that would literally blow up kassadin in no time at all. This means Jhin has to reach breakpoints in his build where he can kill someone faster, meaning the power difference isn't as linear as it with other ADs due to the fixed att speed and the power of his 4th shot. At the same time, kassadin is building 2 scaling items that has sacked his early game agency to be strong at these exact moments.

But even with those considerations that is a massive item differential and Jhin should be able to just facetank Kassadin while killing him with that kind of lead. Personal opinion is that this is not a solo laner vs ADC problem as they are both same level, this is AP items being way too strong and scaling champions(especially AP) are too accelerated in the game, making them too viable as blind picks.

[–]Avenuee1 118 points119 points  (21 children)

You literally have to play perfect as adc only to be same level as inting midlaner tell me how fair this shit bUT aDcS haVE SuPPoRtS fuck supports nerf them to the hell they dont farm dont need kills dont need skill they dont deserve that much power nerf supports buff adcs and this game will be fair maybe

[–]SnookDog 76 points77 points  (8 children)

I am support main and do fucking agree.

I want to be able to support WHOEVER THE FUCK I WANT,

because if I abandon our ADC for whatever the fuck reason it's like I delete a champ from my team.

[–]NahDawgDatAintMeDoublelift 9 points10 points  (4 children)

The thing that sucks is that I want to play the 2v2 but it's just not worth it. Going mid with a roam and slightly tipping it in your team's favor is worth more than getting a kill on your adc.

[–]IvanRussky 6 points7 points  (4 children)

As a player whos gotten high elo on support before and loved supports when they were shit in earlier seasons, I agree.

[–]HootingMandrill Light Bringers! 3 points4 points  (0 children)

God forbid your support that you got randomly assigned to lane with isn't a good player who gives up all your lane control. Then you get to play from even further behind all game!

[–]GlitteringShower 10 points11 points  (0 children)

What pisses me off the most is the unnecessary exp nerf on bot lane

[–]DoubleGio jungle is useless 142 points143 points  (58 children)

Besides Sneaky walking face first into a 2 item lvl11+ Kassadin, isn't Jhin like the worst adc to be in a 1v1 situation?

[–]wensenI'm D5 0lp AKA hot garbage 80 points81 points  (18 children)

Super good vs squishes, by 4th will kill more often than not. Also the MS from Crits on normal shots lets him kite around in a 1v1. He's okay in 1v1 but he's no Kaisa or vayne.

[–]MoxZenyte 51 points52 points  (17 children)

i would say almost every ADC is better at pure 1v1 than jhin.

[–]Play_more_FFS Flairs are limited to 2 emotes. 70 points71 points  (37 children)

Yes but reddit always ignore that and continue to use jhin as the prime example of marksmen balance.

Champ with fixed attack speed, reload mechanic, and zero instant self peel sounds like a champ that should win 1v1 duels /s

Can we go back to watching Dravens juggling axes like badasses vs. tanks? At least those vids are enjoyable to watch.

[–]ifnotawalrus 27 points28 points  (38 children)

This is just a Kassadin thing. I remember watching Nemesis and he was similarly as fed and lost to a behind Kass, see this clip


Granted Nemesis misplay and TF isn't exactly a dueler but this isn't out of the ordinary

[–]MoxZenyte 80 points81 points  (19 children)

jhin isn't exactly a dueler either

[–]ifnotawalrus 41 points42 points  (18 children)

Yeah exactly - this is essentially what Kass specializes in and ADC mains are kidding themeslves if they dont think this also happens to mid/jg players too.

[–]Bardy_Bard 23 points24 points  (17 children)

if he was a 15/1 jungler Sneaky would have murdered Kassadin not even close.

[–]Domovric 38 points39 points  (6 children)

Because jungle champs often fill a different roll? Like, adc's aren't fucking assassins or duelists.

[–]dSwedishChef 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Same thing with the other cass. Theres a vid somewhere of Tarzaned playing the fight as best he could and getting 1v1'd by a 1/6 cassio as 9/0 Elise.

[–]dontknow_anything 28 points29 points  (9 children)

And, look Nemesis isn't complaining even, despite being a level up, similarly 12/1/8 vs 2/4/2 and a bigger cs lead. If a champion especially an assassin gets the jump on you, you will most likely die if you don't have defensive items or counter them. But, ADC players will be hell bent on being allowed to 1v1 everyone when fed despite them making mistakes (you have a range advantage, play around it). Champions are designed around damage to health, not your current stats in game.

[–]ifnotawalrus 18 points19 points  (1 child)

Nemesis is actually a whole 3 levels up - lol and doesnt complain