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[–]Dong_Hung_lo 5918 points5919 points 2 (1935 children)

As a non US citizen, can I ask is there actually any organised group called antifa? It popped up in the media one day (and I know there was something decades ago in the 60s) but it was portrayed as non existent right wing propaganda. Personally I thought being anti-fascist is the normal state of any rational human being.

[–]Tiaholm 2943 points2944 points  (1071 children)

There isn't from what I know any nationwide Antifa group in the us (there is one in Sweden tho), but probably a bunch of local groups

[–]swimfastalexSurvey 2016 2544 points2545 points  (298 children)

Actually, the FBI director recently said that Antifa is an ideology, not an organization.


Edit: To clarify, it’s not an organization in the sense of a traditional organization. There’s no main ANTIFA headquarters where there are all these chapters around the country/world that report to it. It’s basically different groups that have their own agenda and they also have ANTIFA ideology.

[–]Ca1yso 1328 points1329 points  (216 children)

Antifa is a thing that people do, like they'll see where fascists are going and then show up, but there isn't really any kind of membership. It's just decentralized counter-protest with a common name

[–]delinka 996 points997 points  (43 children)

So like Improv Anywhere with more risk

[–]accomplicated 464 points465 points 2 (28 children)

From the audience I’ll need a location, an occupation, and some kind of common conflict such as lack of socialized healthcare, overwhelming systemic racism, or the in-laws coming for a visit and you just burnt the turkey. Go.

[–]DonkasaurusRex 34 points35 points  (0 children)

Others may not, but I appreciate this comment!

[–]SociallyAwkardRacoon 62 points63 points  (7 children)

I was just about to say I think there's one in Sweden. Was at an anti racist demonstration in my area many years ago when a bunch of Nazis came and attacked us. There were mostly families and kids but there were a bunch of antifa folk there with flags and I remember we all heard some bangs and stuff and these antifa guys started banging their flags into the ground shouting "Here they come!". Obviously the whole thing was pretty terrifying, I was only 12 at the time and I remember my mom just hauling my ass out of there ASAP. Ended up finding another mom with a 7 year old who had to leave her kid with us because she'd lost her toddler somewhere in the chaos. But it was honestly pretty cool to see these antifa guys ,and others, push these Nazis back (with a bunch of cops in-between). They eventually had to flee out into the woods, and this event got very famous and a couple days later something like 20,000 people from all over Stockholm gathered in that same area to show support. No Nazi's then understandably. But I'm kind of glad those antifa guys actually were there the first time.

[–]babybopp 3157 points3158 points  (724 children)

So AntiFa is Anti Fascist.

Anti of an anti fascist is a fascist

These people are pea brained

[–]bitchpit 2130 points2131 points  (267 children)

oh so this person is basically wearing a shirt that says FASCISM

[–]Xero_Entropy 1291 points1292 points  (211 children)

Anti-antifa is Profa, or Pro Fascism.

The shirt basically says YAY FASCISM.

[–]137free 607 points608 points  (56 children)

Which is what they want, a powerful white dictator

[–]SDLand 615 points616 points 2 (19 children)

Instead they have a weak orange one.

[–]Fart__ 161 points162 points  (12 children)

A tater dick

[–]frickindeal 99 points100 points  (9 children)

According to Stormy Daniels, it's more of a tiny mushroom.

[–]CrudelyAnimated 257 points258 points  (117 children)

Sweaterman here has a False Dichotomy problem: opposing this extreme means you support that other extreme. In legal terms, there is a difference between being pro- something and being anti-anti- something. Anti-speed limit does not mean I require all people to drive fast; it means I want fast driving deregulated. Anti-antifa means "stop protesting fascism". This guy's problem is that he adds a non-hammer and sickle icon. He's insinuating that protesting fascism is, itself, communism, and he couldn't be farther from the truth.

It's said trivially that "we fought a whole war against fascism", and we did. But nearly the day after that war ended, we started a Cold War against communism. Two extremes can both be bad, Sweaterman. Your shirt's not clever.

[–]Xero_Entropy 110 points111 points  (79 children)

They believe stopping fascism is fascism, just as they believe that calling them racist makes you the real racist.

Contradictions destroy minds, and they are full of them.

[–]LucaRicardo 79 points80 points  (12 children)

That was the point of the entire post

[–]SocratesWasSmart 299 points300 points 2 (146 children)

So if I make a group called "The Good Guys" then anyone that opposes me is automatically the opposite of a good guy, right? One might even say, a bad guy.

[–]MogwaiInjustice 136 points137 points  (1 child)

The Democratic People's Republic of Korea welcomes you.

[–]Tanman7211 409 points410 points  (59 children)

The way I heard someone explain it that made sense is it’s like feminism, it’s just an ideology. You can’t find and arrest the leader of feminism because there isn’t a single person organizing things

[–]hobbykitjr 753 points754 points  (224 children)

You can Google proud boys leader,
KKK leader, they have names, addresses, etc

No one for anti Fa. Our fbi said it's not an organization

[–]no-mames 664 points665 points  (162 children)

It’s not an organization. It’s a mantle for anyone who wants to stand against fascism. It’s hilarious that conservatives love quoting George Orwell, dude was literally fighting with Spanish Anarchists against Fascist Franco

[–]daays 443 points444 points 2 (50 children)

Antifa is as much of an organization as Vegetarians are.

[–]ginscentedtears 136 points137 points  (75 children)

They really do love quoting Orwell when Orwell was a democratic socialist. Conservatives are absolute idiots.

[–]Nobletwoo 73 points74 points  (7 children)

Lol they dont even quote orwell, all they do is tweet out "1984" over and over because they read the cliff notes one time.

[–]swyrl 46 points47 points  (14 children)

To be absolutely fair, 1984's message was generally anti-authoritarian, and otherwise politically unaligned. The point of the book is that all authoritarianism is bad regardless of whether it's "left" or "right".

Of course, the real stupidity is that fascists ARE pro-authoritarians quoting anti-authoritarian material in order to pretend they are victims.

[–]godisanelectricolive 26 points27 points  (7 children)

Animal Farm on the other hand is really about the authoritarian subversion of a socialist revolution that was necessary and had real promise. That's a book people on the right often misinterpret.

[–]Prizin_Mike 462 points463 points  (118 children)

No there’s no organization group called “Antifa.” It’s an ideology like being anti-nazi, anti-dictator

We should all be antifa. I’m proudly anti fascist

[–]AndrewTheGuru 229 points230 points  (11 children)

I remember a massively successful antifa movement in the 40s. Everyone in the world was getting in on it!

[–]lunacraz 41 points42 points  (7 children)

I think there are probably local antifa groups but they’re looped in with super left wing groups of that area I would assume

but no there is no centralized antifa

[–]UnfortunatelyEvil 74 points75 points  (1 child)

Here is a Philosophy Tube video about Antifa in UK and US: link

Basically, there is no organized group, as it only pops up when fascism appears.

[–]fullhalter 14 points15 points  (0 children)

I can't recommend this video enough. It's a bit on the long side but well worth the watch.

[–]insanefish1337 17.9k points17.9k points 242& 3 more (1470 children)

We need to start teaching history, actual history with all the problematic shit we just sweep aside these days because its hard to accept and without downplaying it as if people 100 years ago, or 50 years ago or heck 10 years ago didnt know any better.

[–]Gibbonici 8042 points8043 points 222 (670 children)


There's that line about history repeating itself because they didn't listen the first time.

That's not true.

History repeats itself because we think we know better this time.

[–]BegrudgingCurmudgeon 4734 points4735 points  (87 children)

Those who don't study history are doomed to repeat it.
Those who do study history are doomed to watch everyone else repeat it

(Stolen from a comic. New Yorker I think)

[–]conancat 753 points754 points  (26 children)

That's not my fetish 😔

[–]yurall 501 points502 points  (23 children)

Help! I can only get this flaccid.

[–]ekac[🍰] 26 points27 points  (7 children)

Those who don't study history are doomed to repeat it.

History Doesn't Repeat Itself, but It Often Rhymes” – Mark Twain.

[–]ActiveFrontEnd 2403 points2404 points 26252& 9 more (479 children)

History repeats itself because we think we know better this time.

History repeats itself because the people who learned the lesson get old and die, and the new people don't believe the history they read, or we don't teach them.

It is a failure of previous generations to codify their reality into our culture and reinforce it with institutions that can remind us why we do things the way we do it.

Our generation is failing to do the same thing by not codifying our reality into the culture. The Republican party really does need to be dissolved or reformed. 107 147 Congress people voted to not certify the results AFTER the coup. Every Republican should be (1) trying to expel them from the party (2) Openly talking about how their party has become magnet for fascist. Anything less is failing the next generation.

[–]cornbruiser 368 points369 points  (176 children)

Exactly - thinking history will somehow get magically passed down to the next generation without any study is a kind of cultural Larmarckism — as if the people who came before us alreay learned this stuff, so we'll just naturally inherit it.

[–]Das_Dig_BIck 823 points824 points 22 (173 children)

The simplifying of the American school system started it - we learn the pilgrims came cause they wanted freedom, the revolutionary war happened because we were sick of England’s tyranny, the civil war happened because the north wanted to free the slaves and the south didnt, WWII happened because the Nazis wanted a pure race and decided to take over the world and kill the Jews, the list goes on. Those matters are in NO way that simple, yet our system simplified them to a ridiculous degree and people don’t understand the real reasonings behind history so are doomed to repeat it.

Like, the rhetoric and statement we are seeing politically, especially from trump supporters, are EERILY similar to hitlers demonizing of the media and the left. It’s fucking insane but no one understands that, or refuses too - because they have such a simple and black and white view of history that it borders on fallacy. In fact, I’d go as far as to say that historical events taught in the way they are from first grade to high school in the average public school in America are so simplified they become false.

[–]QuantumMythics 271 points272 points  (74 children)

Wonderfully put. I also find that the only "true" history I've learned (California born and raised) is from college classes specialized for a certain period of history. It exacerbates the issue when you put actual history behind a paywall, much less a paywall that doesn't even feel worth the money anymore.

[–]Das_Dig_BIck 258 points259 points  (55 children)

I listened to a very interesting podcast a while ago that referred to what we are experiencing culturally as the stagnation of culture and advancement in a way. The majority of people, speaking about America here at least, have everything they want. Food, entertainment, and the ability to communicate and know everything instantly at their fingertips. Therefore we have become complacent. Because we have the information at any time, people have stopped actively seeking it. Innovation and advancement like what happened after WWII isn’t even happening at the same rate because people are comfortable just how they are, by and large.

This, compounded with the lowering of school education quality and the strange desire for the USA to tow this weird line in their government. We don’t truly know what we are. Are we a republic? A democracy? Are we liberators or are we an empire?

We need to figure out what we are. And that’s why we are reaching the point we are now.

Donald trump wasn’t the problem, he was the catalyst that brought a bunch of underlying issues to the surface that have been brewing for years and years and now they’re staring at us with a big ugly face.

Just as an example, my wife ( a lovely kind hearted woman, who has her own strengths and I’m not saying this in a bad way) is a product of LA schooling. She hates history, it bores her. And she’s not the only one who has said this.

They HATE the most “boring” subject, which turns out is the most important thing any citizen can learn, because it’s taught over simplified and not in the correct way.

How could you find the fall of the Roman Empire, the build up to WWII, why Japan acted the way it did during the war, the sacking of the library of Alexandria, the mongols, African tribal history, Egypt, or any of the other of thousands of years of history we have boring? And there’s the issue. Our education system has failed us fundamentally and the issues we are only now beginning to realize are coming to fruition, and we are doomed to repeat everything. But with the advent of the internet we will repeat it on a far greater scale that anything before.

Just some thoughts I’ve been having lately.

[–]Mihnea24_03 99 points100 points  (13 children)

The think about history is, too much math and too little ideology. You'll learn dates but not the logic. Of course that's boring, why wouldn't it be?

[–]FeistyVelcro 20 points21 points  (2 children)

Thank you!! It has been my stance for years that the majority of the negative issues this country faces has more to do with the dwindling quality of a basic, public education which for a couple of generations has resulted in people being under-educated and therefore lacking the will or desire to to understand the knowledge that is made available. I don't think this current situation is an issue that can be truly fixed with new laws and restrictions but only a mitigation of consequences. In order to actually FIX the issue we have to go back to the basics in public schools. Get funding into the education system, make teaching a career choice that someone can earn a living wage with enough left over to be comfortable, and for society as a whole to stop trying to "dumb" things down. Instead of attempting to make it easier for the under-educated to understand - and therefore remove the need for better education in the first place - we need to develop higher thinking skills so there is less need for the over-simplification.

[–]MrFrimplesYummyDog 9 points10 points  (2 children)

I can attempt to answer part of your question. I graduated HS in the 80's. I was/am a techhead, so history was never my favorite subject. As I've gotten older, I've come to appreciate history and enjoy reading about it. However, school, like most places never focuses on the big picture and it's far from interesting. Can we focus on appreciating and understanding history? Not really, when the idea is to live in fear of the next quiz where you had to parrot back specific dates and such. There was such a focus on the minutia, and not what we should take away from it.

I'm not asking for pretty pictures and making it dumber, I'm asking to focus on what history is about - the lessons what we should learn.

[–]Das_Dig_BIck 42 points43 points  (1 child)

I as well am a born and raised Californian. I had the benefit of taking some college classes in high school and learnt more in the couple classes I took - constitutional government, anthropology, English and some others than I did in normal high school classes. Fucking bizarre you would think those would be the bases in high school then you’d expand into more thought projects, different philosophical views and different historical interpretations and details in college. Not the case. College is the baseline for education now. When it should be the advanced education.

[–]OskaMeijer 41 points42 points  (19 children)

the civil war happened because the north wanted to free the slaves and the south didnt

Ah yes, learning about the "War of northern aggression" in my school in the south.

[–]UnknownExo 53 points54 points  (22 children)

You're right on point, these people get offended when they're called fascists because in their mind they aren't putting people in concentration camps and goose stepping while doing the nazi salute.

If they delved a little deeper into history, they would see that facism isn't about creating another holocaust; rather its an authoritative political ideology, usually based around a strongman leader, that seek to suppress opposition through any means necessary.

But I doubt they can be self aware enough to see what they're doing has been done before

[–]Dandw12786 27 points28 points  (2 children)

Plenty of people have been comparing trump's rhetoric to Hitler's for five years, and yet they just get shouted down because trump hasn't killed 5 million Jews so he can't be hitler. They completely fail to understand that Hitler didn't go from 0 to killing Jews in a day. It's fucking unbelievable how much this dude acts like hitler and has been for years.

[–]BlueRaventoo 9 points10 points  (4 children)

If that were a real coup it would have gone very different. That was a publicity stunt. Yes someone had zip tie handcuffs (I have only seen 1 picture of 1 person), 1 person reported to have been in possession of a rifle and molotovs... 2 police deaths, of which one was suicide 3 days following and the other was from "injuries sustained in physical confrontation".

If that were a legitimate coup don't you think the attended would have come prepared for war? Especially if you believe that his base is gun loving rednecks?

There are a portion of the us citizens/voters who honestly believe there was voter fraud...it happens every election and the loosing party is always the one claiming it exists...not just this year and not just Republicans. Despite the media saying otherwise there is evidence of potential voter fraud and I encourage everyone to read the charges files from the investigation for the supreme court case.....even if you think it's bs.. If there are potential findings that means the other party could do it next time...and voting is crucial for the function of our government...if even a small portion of votes could be manipulated on purpose or accidentally, or the perception that it can is bad for everyone.

I think what started as a legitimate protest/rally showing opposition had a few bad seeds act out just like the BLM protests throughout the country.

[–]Talik1978 114 points115 points 2 (45 children)

Every Republican should be...

Let's talk about should. Every lost wallet should be returned. Every person should abstain from stealing, rape, murder. Every person should work together to ensure everyone has enough to eat. Everyone should practice perfect empathy and equity.

Everyone should do a lot of things. But everyone fails to do the things they should, and that is why should is great for defining ideals, but poor for making plans.

The phenomena is known as Hume's Guillotine. Ethical absolutism is the enemy of practical problem solving, because it doesn't look at what is, and thus, doesn't look at why things are.

So what do we know?

Every republican won't. In fact, most Republicans won't. Because people have a knack from distancing themselves from things they don't agree with. People support protests, but not the violence and riots that come with them. People support politicians, knowing 99.9% of them are corrupt as fuck.

Because it is a tool.for pushing the parts of the ideology they agree with. Look at people who supported Biden. How many do you think agree with all of his policy? I would wager close to 0. Most voted because they saw it as the best option, even if it meant advancing some things they disagree with.

Hoping for the Republican party to dissolve is like hoping to win the lottery as a retirement plan. It is based in a belief in the should. But in a world where things are as they should be, the government would be anarchy. Nobody would need it, because people would all do as they should without it. There would be no political parties to dissolve.

What we should do is usually the enemy of what we can practically do. So what can we practically do? We, as in us. Not, what do we want somebody else to do. What can we do. Because we are the ones we can control.

[–]HeWhoMustNotBDpicted 78 points79 points  (11 children)

I can tell you took a philosophy class by how you didn't provide an answer and ended with a question! A+

[–]Talik1978 14 points15 points  (3 children)

Collaborative work isn't about having all the answers. It is often about getting the conversation focused on practical solutions. I am not so arrogant to believe I have all the answers.

[–]insanefish1337 18 points19 points  (0 children)

Yeah, because we like to make it look a bit better than it was all the time and when we cant, we blame the times or the people or something. Then we are doomed not to learn and repeat history time and again.

[–]GLIcy 164 points165 points  (19 children)

I remember at my high school I was lucky enough to be in AP Us History since I had some friends in regular and honors and we had just finished going over WW2 era and the social aftermath and I had asked them like their thoughts on internment camps and how seriously fucked our history was and they were like huh? Literally looked at their textbooks and they just skipped over Japanese internment camps

[–]ShurlurkHolmes 179 points180 points  (80 children)

"BuT HoW Am I SuPpOsEd To ExPlAin ThAt To My KiDs"

[–]sucks2bdoxxed 249 points250 points  (75 children)

My grandson plays all the COD games and I take every chance I can to explain what's actually happening....why we're fighting the Nazis, what the cold war was all about. He's 8 and I pick my moments but he definately knows more about WW2 and it's global repercussions than his classmates, I think. We play together, so I try to chat during the game about history instead of just mindlessly blowing away the enemies.

I know he listens because he will walk in on my husband watching the history channel about WW2 and will make pertinent comments. And the state I live in now is not known for its great education. We moved here when my kids were in 8th and 9th grade respectively, and they complained that they were "doing stuff we learned in 5th and 6th grade 'back home'"

[–]CoastSeaMountainLake 82 points83 points  (15 children)

I grew up in Germany in the 70's and 80's, and please tell him that this fascism stuff is serious, and very real. The town I lived in was a big navy town, and even in the 70's there were still plenty of half-exploded bunkers everywhere. As it turns out, it's really hard to demolish something with 3m thick concrete walls.

I was considered lucky to have kept both my grandfathers, and both had been POWs at the end of the war. One just barely got out of Stalingrad before the encirclement. He never spoke bad of the Russians or his POW time. He just said that he knew that if he just survived the POW camp, he'd get back home eventually, but the Russian commoners he met were treated worse than the POWs, and they were home.

I've cried at concentration camp memorials. Not just the big ones, the saddest ones are the ones in small villages. There is a tiny memorial in Aurich, of a tiny synagogue that was just a little house. And you look at that and think "How could they burn this down? How could anyone think these handful of people worshiping there could be a threat?"

And then I saw Trump foaming at he mouth about immigrant caravans bringing diseases and murderers, when in reality these people were basically just economic migrants looking for a better life, and I began to understand HOW Germany 1930's could happen.

Please tell your grandson to not fall for rightwing propaganda. It is easy to get scared. Dictators come in different colours, the Hitlers and Stalins of the world. The result is always the same suffering. This shit must not happen again.

[–]PsychoEngineer 22 points23 points  (0 children)

Ditto, I do similar with my 9 year old son. He knows more about WWII than most adults; he's borderline obsessed. We watch a lot of documentaries together because there are pretty heavy for a 9 year old; and do a lot of "pause and discuss" a lot of things.

Hey, I look at it as something he is interested in that is NOT videogames or cartoons; lets take full advantage of using it as a tool for teaching him things. If I can relate things to that, it grabs his attention and he retains it.

[–]FlyingKitesatNight 31 points32 points  (2 children)

COD is definitely American propaganda.

[–]CommercialExotic2038 15 points16 points  (0 children)

Just like we had to explain grab em by the pussy.

[–]ManOfLaBook 64 points65 points  (13 children)

I highly recommend Swastika Nation: Fritz Kuhn and the Rise and Fall of the German-American Bund by Arnie Bernstein detailing the rise and fall of the American Nazi movement before World War II.

[–]ActiveFrontEnd 257 points258 points  (46 children)

Great, now all you need to do is convince parents/teachers/principals/school board members who hold these beliefs to allow schools to teach it.

That's the problem, us, not some fictitious group of people trying to control us. Yes many people are getting rich off the lies now that social media is a thing, but this was a problem before social media.

You have to get someone elected who can enact better history curricula. To get elected you need a plurality of voters. To get a plurality you need a base. To get a base you need a message and messagers. Sounds like we need community organizing.

[–]Dynasty_Warrior 231 points232 points  (31 children)

Actually, the John Birch Society, Heritage Foundation, Federalist Society and other 'Conservative orgs' actually exist in a non-ficticous way and have actually influenced your politics enough to whittle away at education enough so that you think it's "us" that is the problem and that those actual organizations are imagined by popular right wing conservative conspiracy theorist who never mention or say the name of the very real Conservative think tanks that manipulate your ability to have a decent education and life in America, and sideline the idea by pointing the finger at the boogymen scapegoats. This is how history repeats itself.

EDIT: here's David Koch admitting this https://www.kansascity.com/news/politics-government/article247172191.html

[–]mustybedroom 83 points84 points  (19 children)

Fucking exactly! We are living in a designed society, and it's working exactly the way it was intended. Education, prisons (slave labor), piss poor paying jobs. All as intended. The population is dumbed down so much, we just believe everything we are told. Just keep buying, just keep focusing on how much you hate that other group of people. Meanwhile, the oligarchs keep getting richer and more powerful.

[–]KnottShore 32 points33 points  (14 children)

James Waterman Wise Jr. said, in February of 1936, when fascism comes to the US "it will probably be “wrapped up in the American flag and heralded as a plea for liberty and preservation of the constitution.”

Fascism has been said to be a political philosophy that is followed to obtain power and not necessarily a blue print for governing. It is achieved by predominantly playing to the uneducated and shallow thinking masses, and keeping them from being educated in critical thinking.

Will Rogers - "In schools they have what they call intelligence tests. Well if nations held ’em I don’t believe we would be what you would call a favorite to win it."

[–]killer_burrito 32 points33 points  (2 children)

The superintendent of my school mentioned in passing that we'll have to see how this presidential election goes. It was late December when he said that.

I have a feeling he would not be in board with teaching history in its full context.

[–]ThatOneHippyGuy 47 points48 points  (3 children)

For real I recently listened to a podcast about Harriet Tubman. In school they have a paragraph that basically read 'Harriet Tubman was a slave. Then she became free. Then she saved other slaves.

In reality she saved ~100 slaves mostly family and friends. Then she became an agent of the union. She was at a fort and she was basically the housekeeper there even though she was told she would be conducting raids. She left the fort and started conducting raids. In one raid she saved over 1,000 slaves. She was an amazing woman that has been relegated to a paragraph in history books.

Edit: spelling .

[–]MalpracticeMatt 31 points32 points  (17 children)

Honestly, I think one of the big issues at play here is a the US history covered in schools. I’m not even going to touch on the revisionist BS in many textbooks/states. But what I always remembered was US history classes always started way back with Columbus, and by the time the year ended the teacher was barely making their way to the 20th century. It always resulted in rushing through and barely covering WW1/WW2 and beyond. Always ran out of time, spending too much time reviewing the revolution and civil wars for the 10th time, stopping just short of “fascism is bad”

[–]coffeemug73 3060 points3061 points 2 (150 children)


[–]Summerofjon 1823 points1824 points  (65 children)


[–]nullsie 1029 points1030 points  (52 children)

Antifa...anti-fa....anti-fascist. anti-anti-fascists. fascists. they're fascists, I get it!

[–]Kratzbaum001 199 points200 points  (39 children)

I thought it was antifanti-facist

[–]Cypherex 358 points359 points  (32 children)

They're actually anti-Fanta.

[–]MindChief 12 points13 points  (5 children)

Tbf, Fanta was first created in fascist Germany during WW2, because German Coca Cola factories were unable to import the Coca Cola syrup and needed to find something new to sell in order to save the factories from closing.

[–]jb20x6 11.3k points11.3k points 22 (568 children)

This is what happens when you defund education over 40 years

[–]IndescribableRuckus 2321 points2322 points  (142 children)

Thank you for this. The only way we can undo this mess is by understanding how we got here.

[–]onepointfouronefour 1498 points1499 points  (125 children)

The United States was #1 in education in 1979. Later that year, the department of education was set up and it’s been a compounding spiral ever since.

[–]DarthAbortion 586 points587 points  (47 children)

"Hold me beer" - British Tory government.

[–]CrappyAutocorrect 116 points117 points  (3 children)

Woah now hold on a second, be fair.

The Tories are fucking up everything, not just education.

[–]DarthAbortion 36 points37 points  (0 children)

... Yeah okay you got me there.

[–]TWeaKoR 287 points288 points  (40 children)

We've got a long way to go to fall to US standards, but they sure as hell are trying. Hell, Theresa May already cut back on languages, can't have their cattle escaping off to other countries now, can they.

[–]super1s 102 points103 points  (5 children)

You think its a long way huh? Silly you. It happens FAST.

[–]Asifdude 33 points34 points  (3 children)

A long way can be traversed fast. That is true.

[–]Kakarot_faps 14 points15 points  (8 children)

You realize the UK has nearly the same PISA scores than the USA right, aka how we compare education systems? UK is barely above USA on math and science, and barely below the USA in reading

[–]Taron221 210 points211 points  (49 children)

Well... If we're going, to be fair, a lot of the people that graduated in 79 probably voted for Trump.

Anyhow, this is probably a controversial opinion, but I personally think apart of it is a lot of people don’t feel fulfilled. They spend their whole life working, never seeing anything tangible come of it, and then here comes their chance to feel like they’re apart of something. Even if deep down they know it’s all bullshit, they’re finally going to do something that people pay attention to. In this day and age, it’s hard to stand out when you’re being compared to literally every human being in existence.

I don’t know how you fix this problem. The only way I can think of is to allow people more time off or promote people actually being able to work on their hobbies. Cause to a lot of these people, they’ve basically made these conspiracy theories their hobby. They get invested in it, and they go out and participate, because it’s basically their hobby. They’ve never been able to or encouraged to pursue anything they genuinely enjoy. From sixteen years old, everyone wants you to go to work to make your own money, and that’s the rest of your life.

I don’t know, man, it’s a complicated issue, that I personally think isn’t as simple as people not being educated.

[–]SoFellLordPerth 44 points45 points  (5 children)

Regardless of where you are on the political/philosophical spectrum, Marx had a lot to say about lack of fulfillment and alienation of the individual that is worth taking a look at. Keep in mind he was discussing this over 150 years ago, and yet how similar it sounds to what people are experiencing today.

Light overview of alienation (wikipedia)

Better sourced, a little heavier but still relatively light

[–]Danulas 95 points96 points  (29 children)

You fix this problem by paying people more and demanding less from them in the workplace.

People either don't have the money nor the time to pursue fulfilling endeavors.

[–]OffensiveHaircut 64 points65 points  (0 children)

This was Andrew Yang’s point for his entire presidential campaign - millions left behind by automation, millions worked to the bone in unfulfilling jobs despite a declining middle class and plummeting social mobility. Whether or not people agree with Universal Basic Income, he’s the only one even remotely trying to address this issue.

[–]Groty 34 points35 points  (0 children)

The Education Department is supposed to reach out to all of the industries in the United States and ask, "What skill sets will you need in your employees 15-20 years from now?" They then publish this information for consumption by State and Local governments in the hope of steering the curriculums to satisfy the future needs of the economy.

Then January 20, 1981 - the anti-government administration took over and swiftly broke it.

You also have the following bullshit:

  • "My son is going to mine coal just like me and my father!"
  • "People in Washington don't know what's best for my kids!"
  • "We need more religion and morals in school, not more liberal STEM studies."
  • And we also see support for tradesmen die as well, in part due to the hate for worker organizations that would help drive curriculums. What's the average age of plumbers today? 60?

Then throw in the fact that as a result of the Bush-era recession, States defunded their University and Community College systems. They will never bring back that support again. This is always left out of the college tuition forgiveness discussion.

Guess who does read those reports though! Foreign governments. So US businesses reach out to find people with those skill sets.

[–]papak33 24 points25 points  (3 children)

You got here because the US citizens do not believe in public funding for education.

[–]Doobie_the_Noobie 466 points467 points  (183 children)

I just feel sorry for the educated Americans who have to put up with shitbags

[–]zukeinni98 212 points213 points  (84 children)

I pointed this out somewhere else and someone responded that even supposedly educated people are being radicalized and falling for propaganda. Just look at how many highly educated and successful people were in the Nazis' inner circle.

[–]celicajohn1989 168 points169 points  (26 children)

I would argue that those people were evil opportunists who saw their chance for a power grab. Some may have been sucked into ideology but most were probably just people who saw an easy way to avoid conflict and make a buck off of the fascism.

[–]DependentPipe_1 61 points62 points  (4 children)

Or to use the party to run the horrible, cruel experiments that you've always dreamed of.

Or, once the Nazis were established, join up because there was no way to hold any amount of power unless you were a member.

I feel like these movements start with hate and fear, then the greed and opportunism get involved and whip the rabble into a more useable pack of idiots, led by smarter true-believers, ultimately steered by the opportunists.

[–]no33limit 6 points7 points  (3 children)

They start with easily things that seem true or people want to be true, to build trust and say your on the same team. Then once trust is built, you move to pushing distrust of others. Once that is done you can say what ever you want. Trump started with I'm not a politician, so you can trust me. I'm rich so you can trust me not to be bought. I'm against abortion, and good with guns, so I'm on your team. Then he went to fake news, fake news fake news. Now a huge group of people are only trusting him and Foxnews or other outlets not listening to anything else. It's al well laid out plan from Hitler.

[–]gunawa 51 points52 points  (8 children)

Contemporary example: ted Cruz, smart as a whip, opportunistic AF

[–]Excelius 42 points43 points  (3 children)

People seem to have this idea that better historical education during K-12 education is somehow going to inoculate people against extremism and misinformation for the rest of their life. That's probably not realistic.

If anything it's far more important to teach critical thinking skills and healthy skepticism to enable them to spot the propaganda and misinformation that they will inevitably be bombarded with.

[–]Robotlolz 36 points37 points  (35 children)

Yeah, to me it’s a different issue. But I can’t quite put my finger on what exactly... We live in a time where it’s easier than it’s ever been to educate yourself on any topic, but it’s also easier to go down weird conspiracy theory rabbit holes and get lost in a fictional reality like the hardcore Trumpers.

[–]zukeinni98 27 points28 points  (22 children)

The problem I want to say is the standard of living. It has dropped insanely off the deep end compared to what it was 30 or even 20 years ago. The cost of just having shelter has made life difficult for a lot of people and so they want to blame it on somebody. Much like how the nazis blamed the Jews for the country's economic struggles.

[–]KraljZ 81 points82 points  (12 children)

I can’t tell you how many times I have to hear someone say “well this is communism, or welcome to socialism”. Like google the definitions so you understand what you are trying to say

[–]kimjong-ill 57 points58 points  (5 children)

Most people call it both. "This is communism socialism" ... literally I've heard these terms paired so many times. My go-to response is to ask, "how would you describe the differences between communism and socialism?" and I haven't gotten an answer once. Also, no one has admitted that they don't know. They just quickly change the subject without mentioning it. I'm keeping track of this.

[–]Gravelord-_Nito 23 points24 points  (1 child)

communism is when big govment

[–]OmegaRaichu 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Cumunism is when no iphon

[–]amitym 102 points103 points  (21 children)

This happening is why education was defunded for 40 years.

It wasn't an accident.

Go ask Texas.

[–]st1ckygusset 1052 points1053 points  (36 children)

I'm very much against what he represents

I must be anti-anti-antifa

[–]srcoffee 4449 points4450 points 23& 2 more (55 children)

Man, this guy really does nazi the irony.

[–]Panzerbeards 140 points141 points  (0 children)

I thought he was reich on the mark actually

[–]thatguyruss 380 points381 points  (11 children)

I wanted to stay and ask him what his shirt meant but he had to be Goering.

[–]AlanLGuy 2126 points2127 points  (542 children)

I have numerous relatives who will talk your ear off about how evil Antifa is and how they are a terrorist organization, but they couldn’t even actually tell you what Antifa stands for. When I told them it stood for “Anti-Facism” they didn’t believe me. Insisted it was just an anarchist terrorist group

Edit: this wasn’t meant to convey support for the group or movement, but to point out that many don’t realize it’s short for “anti-fascist” or that the original purpose of the movement(in this generation) was to unite leftists in opposing fascism. Obviously a name is not nearly as important as the actions a group takes and any “noble purpose” the movement might have had has been stained by the actions of the violent rioters who have taken on the moniker

[–]OktoberSunset 1300 points1301 points  (139 children)

I find it weird how Americans say antifa, like in the UK we say anti-fa but Americans say an-teef-a like it's a word on its own and not the prefix anti.
I feel like it's the result of some tactic by the right wing media to obscure the meaning and it seems to be working.

[–]BattleAnus 574 points575 points  (52 children)

I think you're thinking about it too hard, it's just what happens with English's inconsistent phonetics. It happens with other words too, like "preposition" being "preh-puh-sition" and not "pree-position", or "monotonous" being "muh-not-un-is" and not "mono-tonus".

[–]proxyproxyomega 301 points302 points  (15 children)

just like u/BattleAnus. The British may pronounce it Battle-Anus, but Americans say Ba-tlea-nus.

[–]BattleAnus 144 points145 points  (10 children)

And don't forget the French: Bat-L'Anu'

[–]AMatofFact 97 points98 points  (2 children)

I think both of your statements are correct and important to recognize and think about.

[–]Tirogon 48 points49 points  (11 children)

I think I flip flop how I pronounce anti- most times I say antie and some words I say antee

[–]answerguru 55 points56 points  (9 children)

Wait, you don’t pronounce antie and antee the same?? I’m so confused.

[–]22dobbeltskudhul 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Right? What also crazy is that Danish media have shifted from calling them AFA or Antifascistisk Aktion to adopting the American Antifa even though it's always been AFA here. Shows you the americanisation of our media.

[–]zorrodood 27 points28 points  (2 children)

Antifa, Ancloud, Anred XIII, etc.

[–]conyee 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Never thought about it like this. Conveniently mispronounced and popularized like it’s conveniently misrepresented and popularized.🤔

[–]SurefootTM 222 points223 points  (32 children)

This. When asking any of them what it means, turns out they think it's an acronym in most cases, and that it's a kind of an organized group with funding, leadership, etc.. So of course they will never accept the real meaning.

[–]human_brain_whore 79 points80 points  (29 children)

Well there's no real actual meaning anyway.

Antifa isn't an organisation, there's no-one to say "this is who we are, we are anti-fascists".

Thus, anyone and everyone can make up stories as they please about what antifa is.
Both people who don the label and people who need a label for their "adversary" may use it freely in any manner they wish.

Most of us understand is a general term to identify "those against the fascist far-right movement", but until someone actually formalises an organisation, that's just yet another definition.

[–]w8eight 27 points28 points  (31 children)

I kinda understand, because it is easy to give something a name that not represent it. I live in country when ruling party name is "Law and Justice" and law and justice is the last thing I could describe the party with

[–]rdiggly 187 points188 points  (58 children)

I'm not suggesting this is the case for Antifa, but calling something a name does not necessarily make it so. The name is not super relevant.

[–]wererat2000 64 points65 points  (15 children)

Definitely true, plenty of groups choose a name that not only looks good, but frames anybody against them in a bad light by implication. Look at pro-life / pro-choice for a good example - I doubt either side would willingly identify as anti-choice or anti-life. *

*edit: tweaked the wording.

(not trying to open the can of worms about that subject matter, this example is exclusively about the naming conventions)

Honestly what miffs me here is this guy's shirt is just... not a good argument. He coulda gone with anti-anarchist, or anti-communist, or something that would frame him as against something in line with the American zeitgeist. But nah, I guess he's just banking on people hating antifa more than they hate fascism.

[–]eye_can_do_that 84 points85 points  (3 children)

You mean the Patriot Act wasn't about being a Patriot? Or MAGA isn't actually making America great? We've been duped.

[–]Ultimategrid 100 points101 points  (11 children)

Case in point: Pro-Life.

[–]rdiggly 74 points75 points  (8 children)

Or Democratic People's Republic of Korea :)

[–]LyleLanley99 40 points41 points  (7 children)

Or the National Socialist German Worker's Party.

[–]Masturbuilder 238 points239 points  (13 children)

Aunty Antifa

[–]Queen_is_a_Lizard 114 points115 points  (1 child)

Worst pancake mix ever. Full of chunks of the Berlin Wall and shreds of Das Kapital.

[–]mushroomcloud 15 points16 points  (2 children)

So much hate for Aunt Eefa

[–]drawkbox 10 points11 points  (0 children)

And Tifa

All she wants is An Tea For All.

[–]otharosa90 169 points170 points 2 (4 children)

Don't don't bother Luke. Got it

[–]sockofleagulls 416 points417 points  (8 children)

Words are, like, hard man.

[–]HotTyre 485 points486 points  (202 children)

Even "Antifa" is a stupid category. Does being anti-fascist entail that you have to be communist, or violent, or anti-rich, or a protester, or an activist? Or in any way someone who isn't moderate? (I'm not saying that all those adjectives are equal, just stating what it's used to refer to).

The vast majority of people are anti-fascist. Heck, even a hardened boomer conservative can be against fascism (and most likely is, if chosen randomly in the population). But thanks to this sort of language manipulation, moderate people from the silent majority is not the first image that comes to mind when people hear "anti-fascism".

[–]Excelius 122 points123 points  (79 children)

I think the mistake that you and a lot of people make, is assuming that a name must be accurate and fully descriptive of the underlying belief system of anyone who adopts such a label. That's not how human language and labeling work, never has been.

The right plays this same game of label-literalism when they try to deny that Nazism was a far-right phenomenon, because they called themselves "Nationalist Socialists". Of course we know that those with Marxist or socialist/communist sympathies were among those who the Nazis would send to the death camps. No serious historical scholar considers Nazism a left-wing movement.

The right absolutely blows out of proportion the threat of "Antifa", but the left isn't doing itself any favors by pretending that there aren't any violent extremists operating under that label or that it's nothing more than an innocuous "anti-fascist" notion that anyone who isn't pro-fascist is automatically a part of.

[–]chuey_74 183 points184 points  (61 children)

The US constitution it's basically an anti-fascsim manifesto.

Wow you can really feel the hate out there.

The comment was meant to state that a fascist government basically gives itself the right to make decisions for you and takes personal freedoms away at will on behalf of a governing body. This idea certainly existed before the word for it was invented.

The US constitution tries to prevent this by giving you the right of ownership and inherently makes you your own property which in turn guarantees your personal freedoms.

[–]TehRiddles 78 points79 points  (14 children)

First off, because there's going to be some guy out there. I'm not right wing at all, I don't think Antifa are fascists just because of the violence either. There's always the one guy who thinks criticism of Antifa means you must be a Trump supporter or some other bullshit.

That aside, anti-fascist is a "category", Antifa is specifically a political movement with roots in the first half of the last century. Most people are anti-fascist merely because fascism is against them but only a small fraction of anti-fascists are Antifa. You aren't Antifa merely because you oppose fascism for starters. This is kind of a PETA and people for ethical treatment of animals sort of thing, being the latter doesn't mean you are also the former, let alone condone it.

As for the movement, it was a predominantly anarcho-communist one. Has been each time it kept emerging in various parts of Europe over the decades. While the movement has no entry policy, the bulk of it rejects anyone to the right of socialism.

[–]KR_Steel 97 points98 points  (18 children)

Im not justifying any of this crap but Anti means opposed to, not opposite of. You can be opposed to something that is opposed to something else but it doesn’t make you that thing.

Probably not the case in this instance but it’s not like a binary switch.

Again not justify this numbskull.

[–]onecrystalcave 8 points9 points  (0 children)

I’ve dealt with a lot today and the echo chamber is kinda pissing me off, so today’s mini rant is........ antifa is a terrible ideological framework which is completely ass backwards and also can’t read a dictionary. The cells of antifa, what you could call the mini organizations which fall under the ideological umbrella, are pretty much all ill informed, chaotically violent, self righteously extremist groups of people. There is no better term for “anti antifa” because antifa no longer has anything to do with being anti fascist, most members cannot define classical or modern fascism in the first place, let alone stand up to it in any meaningful way. A quick google search of actual antifa cells and external infiltrations showcases a blatant reality that the vast majority of members are frankly losers who can’t even articulate the most basic arguments in favor of their actions. Now the dude pictured above is probably not much better, context clues indicate to me that he’s probably an equally self righteous asshole who cant properly articulate the first reason why he’s out here yelling at some other self righteous asshole over there, but that hardly matters. If you’re going to insult someone’s stupid hoodie, do it properly, don’t just add to the noise storm of self righteous assholes.