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Why do so many people hate Turtleneck? (self.TheNational)

submitted by americanelectra

long time listener but only recently started lurking on this sub. honestly did not love SWB in general but really liked turtleneck. just through looking through posts it seems like it’s a common sentiment that turtleneck is bad?? i’m interested to hear people’s thoughts on it. please don’t drag me im just curious lol

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[–]cholulamare 85 points86 points  (35 children)

This sub's worst prevalent opinions, in no particular order: 1. Turtleneck is bad 2. Hey Rosey is bad 3. Roman Holiday is bad 4. IAETF is their worst album 5. Bryan is locked up in a basement and only allowed out to play drums when the rest of the band all agree

[–]QueenHilaire 22 points23 points  (2 children)

I always associate IAETF with a certain time in my life, which makes it one of my favorite national albums. so dreamy and i first listened to it in 2020 when nothing made sense

also, turtleneck rocks!

[–]jilko 9 points10 points  (1 child)

I believe everyone has this National record.

For me it was Trouble Will Find Me. When that album came out, if felt like Matt was literally singing my thoughts at that awful awful time in my life. That album is legendary as far as I’m considered.

[–]jono12132 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah IAETF takes me back to a really specific time in my life. The first time I'd ever moved house. Everything was new and weird. It was there for me in the aftermath of the closest thing I'd ever had to a gf not working out. It was never that serious I guess but Quiet Light got me through that year. I made a group of friends for more or less the first time in that year too. I have this weird nostalgia for 2019. I Am Easy To Find and American Football LP1 really soundtracked that whole year for me.

[–]FV95 20 points21 points  (0 children)

Hey Rosey is an absolute banger

[–]STILETT0_existsBuild a fire, Val Jester 18 points19 points  (2 children)

We need more Boxer-like drums. The drums turned that album from good to legendary. There's a reason why Ada and Mistaken For Strangers are so widely celebrated in this fanbase

[–]krustydidthedub 10 points11 points  (1 child)

Talking this opportunity to share some random knowledge I never get to share in real life:

The drums for “Mistaken For Strangers” (which are incredible) were directly inspired by “Take You On a Cruise” by Interpol, as stated by Devendorff himself. Two awesome songs, and I love what Bryan did with the drum beat.

[–]cholulamare 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Love this little nugget!

[–]Hall-Additional 2 points3 points  (1 child)

🤣🤣🤣 this Shit had me dyin. ACCURATE. (I like Roman holiday and I adore IAETF so I’m always stickin’ up for em’) Frankenstein is growing on me but the plain Jane stuff makes IAETF even more appealing now🤷🏻‍♂️

[–]cholulamare 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I've always loved IAETF and liked Roman Holiday, but I think I'm so contrary that this sub has just magnified my love for them, I'm just constantly jumping to their defense 😂 I'm actually obsessed with RH now, it's such a vibe.

[–]MallisterDu 2 points3 points  (0 children)

All true lol

[–]EMurphy666 11 points12 points  (3 children)

1-4 are bad opinions but 5 is basically true

gonna start calling this 'radiohead syndrome' where popular ambitious rock bands quit using drums and start making progressively more mediocre music

[–]cholulamare 21 points22 points  (2 children)

I get people having opinions on real drums vs. drum machines, but what's so funny is this recurring view that somehow Bryan is powerless in all this; like Aaron and Matt took away his drumkit and put him on the naughty step. As if he's had nothing to do with all the intricate electronic drum patterns and this isn't something he's openly been interested in for ages.

[–]tropicmorningin a lemonworld 5 points6 points  (1 child)

It should be common knowledge at this point, too. He has talked about it in interviews, released a solo album, and his style is so recognizable in his contributions to collaborations with other artists (certain songs by Gracie Abrams and TS for example)

[–]cholulamare 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Fr!

[–]MrChummyNosei get so far so fast 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Best comment I've seen all year on this subreddit

[–]cholulamare 0 points1 point  (0 children)

🫡

[–]Cobo1039 4 points5 points  (10 children)

I mean, what album is worse than IAETF?

[–]Tankman_1 6 points7 points  (5 children)

Frankenstein, self titled, and ssfdl slightly. But that's just because IAETF is a great album

[–]Hall-Additional 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Big AMEN🙌🏼

[–]Cobo1039 -1 points0 points  (3 children)

Couldn’t disagree more.

[–]Tankman_1 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Dude it has Quiet Light, Where is her head, rylan, IAETF, you had your soul with you, light years, I'm not in Kansas, hairpin turns

[–]Cobo1039 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Rylan was bastardized on this record. Those others aren’t as good as you think they are.

[–]Tankman_1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Okay I'm just having a friendly discussion but I'll let you be then

[–]Lightningstruckagain 12 points13 points  (2 children)

The new one. By far.

[–]Hall-Additional 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you.

[–]Cobo1039 -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

Full disclosure I haven’t bothered to listen yet so perhaps that’s true

[–]Fluffy_Juggernaut_15spinning and quiet 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Frankenstein, for one.

[–]Longjumping-Ocelot90 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Turtleneck is messy and sounds lazy in comparison to their other songs. I love Sleep Well Beast for the most part and will fight anyone who says Hey Roses is a bad song. It’s a fantastic song!

[–]Shifty377 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You're downvoted, but I agree with everything you said.

[–]kunk75 -1 points0 points  (4 children)

But 1-4 are all valid

[–]Taograd359 2 points3 points  (0 children)

That’s a nice argument, Senator. Why don’t you back it up with a source?

[–]cholulamare 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Show your working.

[–]flankattack27 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Honestly agree with every single one of these takes.

[–]AgainstBleeeee 34 points35 points  (8 children)

I love turtleneck! I also love Not in Kansas, fuck the haters

[–]Equivalent-Shoe6239 14 points15 points  (3 children)

Not In Kansas is everything. Many lines in that song are like looking in the mirror.

[–]cesareatinajeroscion 8 points9 points  (1 child)

We need that 9-minute version that’s supposedly out there somewhere. God only knows where else he went with the lyrics on it.

[–]thesecretestmeeting 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Guy said he said 17 VERSES written for that and I would give minimum half a nut to hear it

[–]MattN92 7 points8 points  (0 children)

“My bedroom is a stranger’s gun room” is a 10/10 Berninger line

[–]happyforawoman 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Not in Kansas - I am with you on this! 😍

[–]cholulamare 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Yes! And no it wouldn't just be a good song if they removed the female-sung parts glares at this sub

[–]colelikesbikesPuts on a slow, dumb show for you 1 point2 points  (0 children)

SAME.

[–]jrobski96 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Friend hello

[–]Apostr0phe 34 points35 points  (10 children)

It doesn't necessarily fit the greatest on SWB, but it's not a bad song at all.

It's extra weird because people are always talking about really wanting more old school high-energy, loud songs, but then say one such song is the worst on the record.

[–]jilko 12 points13 points  (9 children)

A majority of people in every fan base have no idea what they actually want. Happens over in the Interpol fan base too. Everyone wants them to experiment with their sound, but anytime Interpol makes a deeply weird non Interpol sounding song or album (Marauder for instance), the fan base at large cries that it doesn’t sound exactly like Turn on the Bright Lights.

[–]matt_paradise -1 points0 points  (8 children)

I just want some good songs and they haven't been able to do it in a long time.

[–]cholulamare 1 point2 points  (3 children)

If you genuinely don't think there's any good songs on FTPOF or IAETF then this might not be the band for you.

[–]matt_paradise 5 points6 points  (2 children)

Talking about Interpol, but thanks for the gatekeeping

[–]cholulamare 0 points1 point  (1 child)

That's not gatekeeping but go off

[–]matt_paradise 3 points4 points  (0 children)

If you say so

[–]jilko 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Marauder and A Fine Mess though were packed with awesome songs, so not sure what you’re wanting. Marauder is a top three album just behind Bright Lights and Antics. It’s too bad you’re still not vibing with what they’re doing.

[–]matt_paradise 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I don't agree, I think every Interpol album is worse than the previous. Glad you get enjoyment from their later stuff. I don't want them to repeat TOTBL, I just want to get the same feeling of intensity, but it could be down to their youth and desperation, which will never be repeated.

[–]jilko 0 points1 point  (0 children)

See, I feel that hunger with Marauder. Like just that first 5 track run played as loudly and possible... it's the most full of life they've sounded since Antics.

[–]matt_paradise 0 points1 point  (0 children)

As an aside, I enjoyed the Muzz album more than anything from Interpol since S/T

[–]RangerAZ1989 7 points8 points  (1 child)

I’ll never understand the hate for Hey Rosey. It’s a beautiful song! I just hate the music video and wasn’t as crazy about it live when I saw them in 2019 as I am about the album version!

[–]cholulamare 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I was lucky enough to see it live with Gail Ann Dorsey and it was really special, like the album version. I think a big part of it is how their voices sound together — I love any song with both Matt and Gail, but especially the harmonies on HR with Gail singing the low part and Matt in a higher register. When other female singers step in for live versions, the harmonies are usually reversed and it just doesn't hit the same.

Saying that, I absolutely love this version and I always recommend it to people who don't 'get' HR, Matt and the whole band sound amazing: https://youtu.be/5eTME3C1cLE

[–]Cragscorner 14 points15 points  (3 children)

I think most of it has to do with the clunky lyrics. The lyrical flow is kinda awkward and honestly I don’t understand what Matt is going for with the chorus. Obviously the song is kinda about arrogant cruel politicians and the people who fall for them but the whole thing is vague in a bad way IMO.

That said …. Great guitars 🫡

[–]americanelectra[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

i think lyrically it definitely falls a bit flat- to be honest i have always felt like their more political songs are a bit cringe because it gives “society sucks and we should stick it to the man but also i am comfortable in my wealth so i’m probably going to donate to a charity and call it a day” but also they make more of a statement than most artists do so i do think it’s overall positive.

in terms of the song though i honestly don’t care about the lyrics because its a musically fun song and the chorus is a banger

[–]STILETT0_existsBuild a fire, Val Jester 3 points4 points  (0 children)

It's high energy, it's fantastic instrumentally, and it's fucking fun to sing along to.

Sure the lyrics are weird but leave the lyrical quality for songs like Walk It Back and Guilty Party. Songs like Mr November, Squalor Victoria, and Sleep Well Beast for the music and the emotion

[–]jilko 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I appreciate Turtleneck because it reminds me of a certain era of Pearl Jam. A really fast, wild and angry song about the state of the world at a given moment.

[–]SharkVanillaIn a river full of lost sharks 7 points8 points  (4 children)

Turtleneck at Basilica Hudson is an incredible performance

[–]cholulamare 4 points5 points  (1 child)

God that whole performance. Empire Line is absolutely transcendent.

[–]Dff427427 2 points3 points  (0 children)

That version of empire line gives me chills every time.

[–]antibendystraw 2 points3 points  (1 child)

where can I find the Basilica Hudson performance?

[–]SharkVanillaIn a river full of lost sharks 7 points8 points  (0 children)

https://youtu.be/Nl3XJoLPuDo

[–]Quaznarg 12 points13 points  (1 child)

I can only speak for myself, but I think it doesn't work very well on the album. I think SWB would be a damn near perfect album without it. It's not a horrible song, but it's inclusion and placement on the album makes me not very fond of it

[–]jilko 1 point2 points  (0 children)

See, I think its placement is perfect. The two songs on either side need the little energy boost in the middle that Turtleneck provides.

Strangely, the inverse of The Alcott completely ruins the flow of the two songs on either of it on Frankenstein.

[–]GracelessBeast 11 points12 points  (3 children)

I also don’t get why so many redditors harshly criticize the band for having a lot of mellow songs on the recent albums, but at the same time furiously attack one of the most energetic tracks of their entire catalogue. Yes, it might not be a lyrical masterpiece, but I like how fast, aggressive and almost hostile it sounds. Matt’s vocals here somehow remind me of Nick Cave.

[–]cholulamare 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Fr. People want another Abel or Available but when they get something in the same vein it gets so much hate... Just listen to Abel or Available then!

You can definitely hear the hostility and anger at the world, like the flip side to the simmering tension on Walk It Back.

[–]staedtler2018 0 points1 point  (1 child)

People probably just want the songs to be good. Turtleneck sounds like it was recorded inside someone's asshole, and production aside it's just a mediocre impression of a rowdy bar band.

[–]GracelessBeast 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh, I obviously did not get that people want songs to be good, thanks for clarifying. Maybe, I have to deal somehow with this overwhelming urge of mine to listen to bad songs. Because, surely there are such things as objectively good and objectively bad regarding art preferences.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Track ordering. If Turtleneck was song #2 on SWB (Nobody Else Will Be There still opening) it would be held much more favorably.

[–]cholulamare 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think you could be right with this theory.

[–]AltruisticFee9770 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I love SWB, I think it’s an amazing album. I just don’t love Turtleneck. I think it would be awesome live. It’s the chorus that throws me off.

[–]c9238sbetter get my shit together better gather my shit in 5 points6 points  (1 child)

I don’t like how they make my neck feel all constricted.

[–]Aquarian_Girl 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Haha, same!

[–]Pistachio1227 11 points12 points  (0 children)

In my opinion it Beats almost every song on Frankenstein.

[–]Lightningstruckagain 6 points7 points  (1 child)

I love Turtleneck. The sarcasm just oozes out of “This must be the genius we’ve been waiting years for”.

I mentioned on a song by song review on here a few years ago, but I also love it because it sounds like how a hangover feels and I love how divisive it is amongst the fans.

[–]cholulamare 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Wow your hangovers must be full on.

[–]Travellerdeanzilla 2 points3 points  (2 children)

To me it sounds like Th National having a go at writing a punkier song that doesn't fit them. Matt sounds like he's not quite sure how to be mad on it.

[–]cholulamare 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I think he was genuinely angry and sounds genuinely angry — and it's not like they haven't written songs like this before, so it wasn't something new. He was just angry at a different subject.

I love seeing glimpses of that side of them, like if the National were a punk band in an alternate universe. Like this Ramones cover is actually so good and they're having so much fun with it (I know some people will hate it though) https://youtu.be/5MZt_5okYZQ

[–]flankattack27 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Matt deep down desperately wants the National to be Joy Division. I love it

[–]njschuerm 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Personally, i think it's the weakest track on SWB. I dont hate it, per say, but i think the album would flow better without it. (Imo, you scrap turtleneck, and then flip system and born to beg, i think its important that disc one ends on an angry note, before the quieter dissillusion of empire line that starts disc 2) The garage rock rawness of it really clashes with the rest of the album which is all very produced if you know what i mean. Also, the lyric "its just another man in shitty suits everybodys cheering for, this must be the genius weve been waiting years for" is pretty obviously all but namechecking trump which i think is really cringey (to be fair 2017 was a very different time lol, i think the country was just alot more politically earnest and naive coming out of the obama presidency than we are now, having lived thru the trump presidency. I think at the time, symbolic gestures really felt like they meant something in a way that is laughable in 2023, maybe that retroactively colors turtleneck as kind of embarassing. Not really fair since art should be understood in context, but in 2023 looking back at a 2017 song that angrily namechecks trump feels like the worst kind of empty liberal grandstanding if that makes sense.) Not a bad track, but i dont really think it fits the album. Kinda like how mr november is great and is the perfect closer to alligator, it would feel really lost and out of place on SWB.

I dont think it works, but its not necessarily bad and if you dig it im happy for you! Dont let me tell you not to like it, im just explaining why it doesnt really work for me.

[–]cardinal_song 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I had no idea people hated it until I joined this sub. It's one of my favorites!

[–]sometimes_a_dog 8 points9 points  (1 child)

why is every other post here interrogating everyone else's preferences? we're a small group of online weirdos, we don't represent a significant portion of national fans, and we all love this band.

[–]ClemencyArtsIncludes a little bit of hell 3 points4 points  (0 children)

This is veeeery important to remember. Just looking at Spotify streams alone makes it very, very clear that this sub‘s general opinions are FAR from the majority.

[–]Equivalent-Shoe6239 3 points4 points  (3 children)

  1. I like Turtleneck. 2. Roman Holiday makes me cringe. It’s an always-skip for me. 3. Bryan is the best fucking drummer alive today, since Neil Peart has died.

[–]STILETT0_existsBuild a fire, Val Jester 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Sorry, but there's Bryan on Mistaken For Strangers, and then there's Jeremiah Green on Trucker's Atlas.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I have some really sad news for you about Jeremiah Green...

[–]STILETT0_existsBuild a fire, Val Jester 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I know. Had a really fucking hard new year's eve. I'm a bigger Modest Mouse fan than I am of the National which says a lot.

[–]LandTrilogy 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It's one of my favorites on SWB. I don't think it's their lyrical high point but I also don't think they were aiming for that. It always felt to me like it was all about the energy and delivery--and for that reason it always reminded me of how some songs become so much more intense live than on albums. So for me it was one of the few times I felt they captured the energy of their live show. Plus, it kicked ass on that tour.

[–]grewsimm 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Because liking things is subjective. I personally hate that song. Skip it every time. Why? Because it doesn't get me in any of my feels. Can't relate to it. Don't like it.

[–]SugarMouseOnReddit 1 point2 points  (2 children)

At least for me ... it's because I don't like the song. I actually dislike most of Sleep Well Beast and it's always boggled my mind that it's so well regarded in the community when it has so many "eh" songs that sound unfinished like the title track, Turtleneck, Walk It Back, etc.

[–]Aquarian_Girl 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I agree with this. I love "Nobody Else Will Be There" and like "Carin at the Liquor Store" and "The System Only Dreams in Total Darkness," but am not particularly fond of the rest of the album. Well, "Day I Die" is pretty good I guess, but I'd still rank it pretty low overall in songs of theirs. "Guilty Party" is good live, but the studio version makes me sleepy (not in a good way).

[–]SugarMouseOnReddit 1 point2 points  (0 children)

To me Sleep Well is largely highly regarded because it wonthe Grammy which was in large part because of the good will generated from the critical acclaim of the previous albums. It was timing more than anything else. Sleep Well has some great songs but it also has a lot of filler in my opinion. It’s not a bad album. It’s just not the top tier album some say it is. At least to me.

[–]SugarMouseOnReddit 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Hot take ... IAETF is the best National album.

[–]Hall-Additional 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I have it at #4 but this is arguable for SURE

[–]Longjumping-Ocelot90 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Second best. TWFM is by far the best!

[–]Pungentstench69 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I rocked a navy blue turtle neck for years and all of my friends encouraged it. "dude where's your turtleneck?" ""Why aren't you rocking that turtleneck"?

[–]Pungentstench69 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There's nothing cooler than sipping on iced beverages in a turtle neck

[–]Daftpunk78 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Because they are wrong.

[–]SugarMouseOnReddit -3 points-2 points  (1 child)

Also, I have a theory that IAETF isn't well-regarded partly because of the album title. I think it could have better called Light Years or Quiet Light.

[–]TimperleySunset 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Strange take

[–]kfadffal -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I like songs in that vein but I don't think The National do them very well. Still not the worst song on SWB - that'd be Walk It Back.

[–]soggy_gargoyle -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

If I leave a tiny nick the next time i shave my neckbeard again, it's coming out looking like razor burn strawberry patch after a full day on the grind. Even if it's mock t-neck. Protip if there's a ribbed option on sale even if it's a shitty color, get it

[–]ascarIIit takes a while to settle down 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Time to bring back Turtleneck on the setlist!

[–]Small_Art3459 0 points1 point  (0 children)

it's good, just not as good as the other tracks on that record.

edit: spelling.

[–]staedtler2018 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Merits of the song aside, the studio version sounds horrible to me. The guitar tone makes my skin crawl, as well as the change in sound from verse to chorus.