Daily Song Discussion #17: The Alcott

6.5. I seem to like it more than most here, and often find the 'ill ruin it all over' part playing in my head. That said, I wish the Taylor Swift lyrics were better. I head Aaron say in an interview that Taylor sent her part back in a voicemail about 20 minutes after he sent her the song. Unfortunately, this is exactly how it sounds - like about 20 minutes of effort went into it (lines like "give me some tips to forget you" make me cringe a little every time) and it does reduce my overall enjoyment of the song.

3. Not a fan: it’s pretty dull, plodding, and way too melodramatic. I do like the “I’ll ruin it all over” bridge though. Some of the lyrics are pretty lame, like “give me some tips to forget you” (Ive never thought t swift has ever been a particularly engaging lyricist though). I wonder if I would have liked this song more was I was like 16.

This will sit at #1 on their top songs on streaming services until the end of time, but it is probably their worst most unoriginal song in recent memory. Starting to feel like they are getting blinded by the light, especially Aaron.

6- I don’t skip it but it also sounds like it should be on the soundtrack of a 1984 romantic drama starring Debra Winger and Christopher Reeve.

2 - a total head scratcher for me. Cringy and almost a total departure from the national’s catalog The rest of the album is a 9

3, and I like Taylor Swift. Have liked her since long before she was associated with the national, and like Coney Island a lot.

I have two main issues with it.

The first is her writing, it feels very much like it was phoned in pretty quickly without any time to really let it brew. A first draft recorded with no time to see where it goes. The style doesn't suit a National song, just a Taylor Swift song.

The second, honestly, is that she's not the right voice to duet here. The other 4 recent features have all basically been backing vocals, and they've all made sure to not get in the way of Matt. Phoebe's voice in yminyf is a great example of this, her harmonies add a dimension but don't get in the way of matt. The national have always had female voiced harmonies, so there's nothing out of the ordinary there.
However, Taylor isn't a second fiddle. Anything she does she very much features herself front and centre, and her voice is well suited to that. Coney Island works as a TS song because it is her song with some bits for Matt, with writing by her to match. The Alcott in contrast feels like Matt's song where she muscles her way in.

I really like the first minute, and when she's just doing harmonies it's alright, even if I don't think she adds to the song. When the adlibs start and especially the last minute, it just doesn't work for me at all.

If very much like to hear a version without her, or a version with her part done by someone with a less overpowering presence. I don't think it's a bad song (though not amazing), but I definitely feel like she makes it worse.

3

i hate saying this but this song just has some of the weakest writing on the album. (people were saying that about your mind is not your friend, but at least that song has a deep emotional meaning (ex: lines like "you inherited a fortune" about hereditary mental illness) and the instrumentals are beautiful) whereas this is a more of a short story and the lyrics are too on the nose to feel like a song by the national.

it's hard to not think of it like that when something like carin at the liquor store has "i was a worm, i was a creature, i'd get on the ground the second i'd see you" vs this blatantly saying "i think i'm falling back in love with you." and even worse is "give me some tips to forget you" and "tell me which side are you on dear" it just feels like taylor swift feat. the national again.

the first half isn't so bad but the rushed back and forth singing really kills it for me.

8. I simply love the piano and some of the lyrics really hit me. I loved how Matt set the tone of the Alcott and got me immediately in the story. I wished Taylor Swift would have been less present here though. I can enjoy her music but her part of the lyrics just screams a bit too much teenager to me and were distracting. I don't know how else to say it. Not sure if she wrote it herself or Matt did, it's just one of my least favorite lyrics in a The National song. I loved the contributions of Sufjan and Phoebe on this album, way more subtle and minimalistic but all the more powerful. It would have been great if they kept the same approach here. Despite my criticism, I have been finding myself returning to the song over and over again, so a solid 8.

1

The definition of generic and forgettable. Typically Matt is known for painting scenes with creative wordplay. This track has none of that. There’s nothing that stands out. It’s one note, never evolves. I don’t know what they were thinking. You’d think they’d utilize such a huge guest on a song that makes an impact. All around missed opportunity on the album as a whole and is stuck between two 8/10 songs, which is a huge bummer for album listens. Instant skip every single time.

3.

This song really frustrates me. I actually enjoy the composition, 80% of Matt's lyrics, and even the way TS's vocals blend with much of the song. The problem is that the in-between vocal lines TS sings starting around 2:10 are so jarring and generic. They don't really feel "in universe" with the rest of the song, or TN in general. They also crowd out the rest of the elements of the song by taking up all the open space.

Personally, I loved This Isn't Helping and Send For Me, which many people have said are "too straight forward". I sort of agree, but they have elements that more than make up for it (in my mind), so that critique of this song doesn't land for me. I also don't care for TS's style, but that shouldn't matter if you're a guest singer, so long as you adjust your style to match the artist you're contributing to. But listening to lines like "give me some tips to forget you", "tell me, which side are you on, dear?", and "shred my evening gown" stuffed into weird spaces makes me wince. The clearest illustration of my dislike of the song is probably the contrast between 2:45-3:02 vs. 3:03-3:23. TS goes from providing great atmospheric vocals while the music shines through, to sprinkling really out-of-place top 40 glitter over the song.

TN are probably my favorite band, and I believe TS is a good musician, but this song just doesn't work for me & I struggle to listen all the way through.

People skip songs on albums?

2- The lyrics are so straight forward as to become awkward and cringey. I have taken to skipping this one. It’s also at a weird part of the album as it breaks up the flow between the songs before it and after it, which I think does the song a disservice.

2 Not a bad song per se but just not the song I want to hear when listening to the National

5 just a regular song She has a good voice, but I don't like how she got to sings lines while Sufjan and Phoebe didn't get to...

2…it lacks any and all character that makes a National song.

2. It is still very cringy to me and I almost always skip the song when spinning the album.

2

According to the scale: 3.5

I feel like most low ratings for this will be dismissed as hate toward TS but it pains me to give any National song a rating this low. (I also enjoyed a lot of folklore and evermore.)

Every song on the album has gone through a favorite/repeat phase at this point except this one...I've been skipping it because it disrupts the flow of TMN, Alien, Grease, Ice Machines.

I feel like it would have more potential and a better melody if it was just Matt; it could've been one of those songs where the music was "allowed to breathe".

I've read claims that people wouldn't have as much of a problem with it if it were Phoebe, Sharon Van Etten, etc. but in reality, none of them would sing like that on this track. I do like the way her background vocals add some dimension. But Taylor coming in between Matt's lines feels forced, like she's rushing to get her lines in, and ruins the flow of the music for me. It might have worked better if she had added less lyrics so the speed at which she's singing would align better with Matt's pace.

7.5. Not a masterpiece, but not remotely as bad as some angry redditors claim. Yes, lyrics are quite simple, but I think it’s more of a good thing that guys combine complex and packed with lyrics songs like TMN and NOTS with simple and almost “domestic” ones like Eucalyptus and The Alcott. I enjoy how Matt and Taylor sound together, it’s like broken and confused person tries to reach someone, who doesn’t suffer from this kind of problems, which for me is pretty much the main narrative of this album. I also love the barely audible sound that resembles heartbeat, it reminds me of the same (but louder) rhythmical sound in Nobody Else Will Be There.

2.5. I love Coney Island, and folklore. This song ain’t it.

8.5 Grown on me a lot since I first heard it.

2

2. Sorry, went in with an open mind, tried to like it but I just don’t think it’s very good

"I tell you that I think I'm fallin' Back in love with you"

Matt used to write unique ways to say this without blatantly saying it. It's what makes his writing so unique. This is so terribly generic and boring.

2

Among their worst songs: This isn't helping, sugar wife, Roman Holiday, alcott

We wait 4 years for an bum and get this watered down parody song of everything they've done before? Compare this to other ballads like pink rabbits, Carin at the Liquor store, slipped, i am easy to find which are all 9-10/10, this is quite bad. Much prefer Send For Me.

People are super harsh on this one, but I don’t think it’s that bad. I’d go maybe a 6 for now. It’s definitely grown on me since my first listen. And hey I’m a fan of Taylor Swift. I just don’t think it nails the emotion it’s going for, and some of the lyrics just aren’t that compelling. That said, I love how their voices sound together. I think they play off each other really well. And there are still a few lines I enjoy, like the opening “I get myself twisted in threads to meet you at the Alcott” and “I’ll ruin it all over.” Coney Island is the better duet though.

6.8 It’s a good little duet, which isn't something The National is known for. I can't help but feel like if this song was featuring Pheobe then it wouldn't be getting 0s. I can't help but feel like some of this is pointed at fans distaste for Aaron going to help Swift work on pop albums

10. Beautiful, moving, and addicting. I love the push and pull between Matt and Taylor. I also love how the song builds on itself; it’s what keeps bringing me back. It feels full and finished, like it takes you on an emotional journey and leaves you content at the end. A little different for The National, but I don’t think that’s a bad thing at all. The mass hysteria over this track is unnecessary. If you don’t like it—fine, but it doesn’t mean TN has changed forever/sold out.

0. My subjective opinion of course. I think Taylor Swift is lovely and I’m sure very talented. Not for me though. This does not belong in their catalogue. Again - for me. Not looking to be provocative or invoke the wrath of TS fans. I received that on a post couple weeks back and was not enjoyable. Her voice seems super produced and does not “blend” with Matts. With all National songs my likeness rates 1-10 - every single song is a National song whether good or bad. This would be the only zero. I genuinely love the album. In my mind and to my ears - I’m cutting this one off.

5 pretty forgettable

8.5 . Growing on me and the way it's singled out for criticism is silly.

2- I loved the opening music and Matt’s beginning part, it just doesn’t sound like The National. It has joined Turtleneck as the second The National song I will skip.

3.

4 Maybe?

Think Taylor does her job well enough on this song. Her backing vocals are good and her written lines link back to matt’s well enough.

It’s matt’s lyrics that are the problem here for me. Like lots of this album, they’re quite uninspired and lacking the quality that made him such an incredible lyricist previously. Same problem I had with NOTS and YMINYF. Also eucalyptus but at least that sounds like it’ll bang live.

7

To me this seems more like a Taylor Swift song than a National song

this is a solid 9 for me but I’m a Swiftie.

don’t really get the hate here. the lyrics aren’t as deep as some other tracks but the duet nature of the song makes them hit harder imo.

i’ve been waiting for this!

7.5 - first listen to The Alcott made me immediately think of Born to Beg, a track that always makes me heart skip. i’ve always heard Born to Beg as about a couple who doesn’t communicate — later that year in the back of the Warsaw/I thought you and I might be okay; I’d cry, crawl, I’d do it all/teakettle love I’d do anything…if your heart was in it/I’d stay a minute/I’m dying to be taken apart — so with The Alcott opening, well, in the back of The Alcott (where they always meet!) it made me think of the speaker from Born to Beg meeting back up with whoever. You tell me your problems/and I tell you the truth/it’s the last thing you wanted/it’s the first thing I do. they’ve come a long place from being in the back of the Warsaw — no I thought we might be okay — but they’re not there; i’m not sure if falling back in love is what these two need, but they have. it hasn’t been ten years, but people change their skin

…this ended up being more about Born to Beg, which is the superior song, as The Alcott is strengthened by my love of Born to Beg. BtB can stand on it’s own; The Alcott, without it, drops down to a 5.

2 according to this scale. The very beginning is OK, then I skip it

7.5 It’s a true collaboration and I think it sounds pretty magical

0.2

10 love that song.

5

I think it's a 5. I like a lot of this song in theory, and their voices compliment each other well. Musically it's a warmed-over Exile that doesn't hit the highs of that duet.

Lyrically, idk. I like a few lines (I sit there silently/Waiting for you to look up/I see you smile/When you see it's me) but then they drop real clunkers like (Give me some tips to forget you/Did my love aid and abet you). Many lines feel like a first pass.

I'd go like 5.5? Weird song! It's super straightforward, no denying that. Matt is extra lyrically direct here and then Taylor's directness somehow still manages to be jarring compared to his. Their vocal deliveries also are worlds apart in places, and musically it's not a standout. But even despite all that, it kinda works for me? It's brooding but has a brightness to it, not very "National-y" but something about how stark it is almost loops it back around to being interesting.

5.75

5

5. And I love Coney Island.

4

I love this but the lyrics are weak

5

3

Based on the scale probably a 2.5. I’ve been skipping it since playing it multiple times when first listening to the full album on repeat

3

7.5. A duet, well done.

Sadly, it's a 4 for me. I'll preface this by saying that I didn't have much familiarity with Taylor Swift pre-Aaron era, and I quite like the material they've put out together. So I came into this collab optimistic and open-minded.

Alcott is currently my only skip on FTPOF (and it's an aggravating skip too, because it's sandwiched between my two favorite tracks, Alien and Grease). I would also rank Alcott lower than practically every song on Folklore/Evermore, so it's not an anti-Taylor thing. I think she has proven to be a really talented writer, so it boggles my mind that her lines on Alcott feel so random and lazy (e.g. "whose side are you on dear?"; "did my love aid and abet you"; "I love this curse on our house"). I wish she would have tempered her voice a bit too ("did I become one of your problems" is delivered with this pop sass inflection that just prevents me from getting immersed in the song). All that, combined with some of Matt's cheesier writing (something about seeing you smile when you see that it's me? Don't know the exact line) just makes this a disappointment for me. Loving the album otherwise though!

2

I’ll go 4 here. I like the melody, it’s a pretty song, but otherwise unremarkable. The lyrics are easily the weakest of the whole album, and it’s kind of a shame because it has potential.

4 could have worked as a standalone one off but feels completely out of place on this album

8 - This song has grown on me. Like other's have said, the hate that this song gets is crazy. I can get not liking it but the way people are freaking out about and basically calling it the worst song every is funny. It's a stark contrast to what I've seen on the Swift reddit page. The people there who don't like the song there just say it's not their style of music and go on with their day.

6-7. Y'all got some sort of prejudice naming it any less.... name another National song that you would say covers the same territory

8

Its a shocker 2

8! Not my very favorite, but still a sweet song that keeps getting stuck in my head.

If TN have an opportunity to do a poppier song with one of the biggest musical artists of the last couple decades, good for them! This song belongs in their catalogue. I’m happy to hear whatever different sounds they want to put out, even if their melancholy is what made me a fan.

7.5. I think everyone has such high expectations for The National that when they hear a mediocre National song they’re super judgmental. Hence all the 2s. This song is fine.

8

I love the harmonies at the start I think they're done really well (along with Clean with Imogen Heap they're probably my favourite Taylor harmonies). I like that the lyrics are simple to understand but still paint a picture of a convoluted relationship

1/10. Possibly the worst TN so g they've ever released because it has no nuance and is a blatant pop song. Avoid at all costs!

8

3

8.5 One of my favorites on the album. I’m kind of surprised by the reception from this sub

2. It’s a bummer and I really like Coney Island

Cheesy lyric and pop glitter disrupts an otherwise fantastic sequence of songs. Unfortunately, this an auto skip for me.

I really tried to love it and gave it an honest dozen listens through my daily listens to the album, but the more I listened the more the pure pop and cringe emerged. It would have fit on a TS album and Weird Goodbyes should have made the final cut on this album.

7

Full disclosure, I'm a big Taylor Swift fan (and obviously a huge fan of The National). I think this song is vastly superior to Coney Island so I'm really happy to have a better duet with Matt and Taylor. The lyrics are solid, heartstring pulling National content and the melody is really pretty. I don't think the song does anything particularly magical for me so it doesn't break into 8+ territory. As with the rest of the album, I wish it had more anger / burning passion, but I can't say it's not well done in its own way.

7

7

9!

8. People hate it because of the feat.

Cracking up at those giving it a 2 lol. I don’t think any National song in existence comes even close to warranting a stinkin’ 2! But each to their own.

7.8.

If TS was not in it it wouldn’t be so controversial. I personally love it, especially when Matt says the I’ll ruin it all over lines it’s really powerful.

9

7

8

7.5! Solid effort from both parties but I can see why many don’t like it—its placement on the album is strange—although I do think it’s judged rather unfairly against other National material (and is definitely stronger than some songs on the album).

8

10, loved it from the beginning!

6.5

7

6

6 for me

7.5. I’m a Swiftie, but I don’t think this song is anywhere near the best on this album. It’s still a good song, but definitely doesn’t live up to the standard that was set with “coney island”

about an 8

10

9

9

2 - Going by the suggested scale it can’t be higher than a 2. It just doesn’t belong on the album to the point it’s jarring, particular as it’s between the excellent Alien and Grease In Your Hair. I made my own version where I replaced it with Weird Goodbyes which is both a better song and fit for the album. An aberration.

5 — I liked it more at first than I do now, oddly. I’m the opposite for nearly every other song by them. Usually I think it’s because I learn their lyrics and they’re beautiful, and here, I think they fall a bit short compared to the other songs.

4. It's the only skip on the album for me.

6

8, lovely song, but I’ll be honest, Swift’s contribution really brings the song down. “Give me some tips to forget you” 🤮

10 - The song has semantic twists and turns all over. They're not speaking their minds, more like a wordplay according to this golden reasoning they agreed upon, to seal off and treasure together: language itself. He tells, that he thinks, that he's falling, third-order logically so that she wants tips, from him, to forget him. They're lying, to keep trust.