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[–]keepthetips[M] [score hidden] stickied commentlocked comment (0 children)

Hello and welcome to r/LifeProTips!

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[–]CakeAccomplice12 4571 points4572 points  (499 children)

In pretty much every job application I've filled out recently it has asked for desired salary

Which means they have your number before the interview even starts

[–]Pot-it-like-its-hot 1290 points1291 points  (275 children)

The hospitals I apply to in Canada always ask what I expect. They usually force you to pick a range on the initial application. The ranges go from 20k-30k to 180-200k a year!

Edit. It can be a good thing so hiring managers don't waste time but it can also be terrible in that potential employees can be taken advantage of.

I think employers should be upfront about what range they can actually offer and the negotiation should take place afterwards with that information.

That would provide transparency so no one's time is wasted AND no is taking advantage of a new employee.

[–]spacetime_dilation 856 points857 points  (251 children)

I would always write "negotiable".

[–]Matrix17 1519 points1520 points  (227 children)

A lot have to be numerical. And if you write negotiable or $1 or something you usually get filtered out. Welcome to modern recruiting

[–]supertaquito 621 points622 points  (195 children)

They are filtering out themselves by doing that. People would be dodging a corporate bullet not getting hired by a company who does that.

[–]PokeYa 986 points987 points  (144 children)

As a currently unemployed person filling out a few apps a day, I have never seen an application without this question.

[–]Matrix17 899 points900 points  (124 children)

Yeah this is the norm. I feel like the people giving advice on this are people who haven't had to look for a job for the last 5 or 10 years. I'm currently unemployed and have had interviews so I know exactly what they're doing now...

[–]erktheerk 394 points395 points  (83 children)

As a blue collar worker for the last 22 years I have no clue what it's like for wages to be negotiable.

[–]dreadcain 265 points266 points  (62 children)

They are mostly only negotiable down. Put down a low number and they get to pay you less, put down a high number and they just won't call you.

[–]setocsheir 89 points90 points  (59 children)

I think it depends on the field. A lot of my friends who work in tech won't even look at anything below 120 to 150k.

[–]ursrsly 48 points49 points  (0 children)

Whether it's good or bad is almost entirely dependent on whether you have leverage in the situation. If your skills are in high demand and hard to come by (and you know how to negotiate) it's great. Otherwise, meh, I'd rather have a set rate.

[–]Conrad-W 13 points14 points  (1 child)

Blue/white collar here depending on who you ask. If I want a raise, I get a job somewhere else and they give me a raise to stay. The only way to do it.

[–]Misterstaberinde 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Lifelong construction guy here. Wages have been extremely negotiable in my experience. But your skills have to be on point.

[–]best_ideas 32 points33 points  (5 children)

That’s why unions are essential so that workers can have an upward pressure on wages.

[–]Drostan_S 75 points76 points  (3 children)

Yeah, they also generally don't care what you want. Want 15/hr for a 20/hr job? Yeah right more like we're gonna offer you 11, and if you want to negotiate, you can negotiate with the door on your way out.

[–]FatherBucky[🍰] 12 points13 points  (0 children)

I know it isn’t the norm, but on my last application I asked for what I thought was a good amount and they sent back an acceptance that was 25% higher. Hurts to know you could’ve asked for more, but feels good knowing you didn’t get completely screwed and can probably negotiate for a bit more later.

[–]Perleflamme 10 points11 points  (1 child)

Maybe it's a US trend? I looked for a new job not long ago and I didn't have to tell my range before theirs.

[–]Diltron24 52 points53 points  (0 children)

When I was unemployed I always loved when people would tell me stuff like this, when clearly they haven’t applied for jobs in ages

[–]Ask-Me-If-Im-Happy 11 points12 points  (1 child)

I see it even on low skill low wage jobs too., Like in a supermarket. Feels so ridiculous because they're going to pay me the same hourly rate they pay everyone else right?

[–]-F1ngo 6 points7 points  (3 children)

In my country there is a law that forces companies to add a minimum salary to job listings. This minimum salary often is below what you can expect in the end actually. Most of the time it's the minimum wage from nationwide collective agreements.

[–]cranp 25 points26 points  (0 children)

The hiring process may have nothing to do with the work environment for this particular position. Hiring could be run by HR or even contracted out, but your supervisor and team are in another department.

[–]CasualAdultery 105 points106 points  (14 children)

They are filtering out themselves by doing that.

They don't care. There are a thousand applicants for every position.

[–]temp1876 28 points29 points  (2 children)

Depends. I’m hiring, and having trouble finding one person. Just because hundreds click apply doesn’t mean there are hundreds of qualified candidates.

And I know low balling is just as likely to get you kicked out, if they are looking at 150-180k, and you say 120k, the assumption is you are underskillld and will get rejected

[–]redjhdit 9 points10 points  (0 children)

I’ll take it for $180k/yr, plus insurance and 3 weeks vacation. I’m flexible if it’s a good fit.

[–]micromoses 80 points81 points  (1 child)

The entire purpose of job applications is to get hit by a corporate bullet. You get hit by a corporate bullet or you remain unemployed.

[–]Bigsloppyjimmyjuice 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Oh no, now they'll only have 609 applicants instead of 1000

[–]lifepuzzler 18 points19 points  (3 children)

You vastly underestimate the amount of people looking for work, especially right now

[–]Dads101 67 points68 points  (9 children)

Tried this, some of them force an amount in numerical form.

All the ones I put 0 in, trying to negotiate at the interview, I never got a call.

The market is really shit right now. -

Recently graduated computer person

Edit:

Some have asked & my degree is CIS.

My cousin is a DevOps Engineer who went over my resume with me. He said it’s strong and the market is just unfortunately bad right now.

You’d think we need more computer people with everything going remote but lots of companies are either doing the best they’ve ever done, or are doing the worst they’ve ever done.

Weird times

[–]ImFriendsWithThatGuy 25 points26 points  (2 children)

That’s unfortunately the name of the game right now.

It may not be what people want to hear and it does suck, but for anyone desperate for work: take the job. Put in an amount the makes you happy and don’t try to lowball yourself.

Use that job security and experience to apply elsewhere for higher posting jobs. You can now negotiate higher pay and say “this is what I make now. I want this much more.” If it falls apart at least you have a job.

Refusing to take a job and having a period of time with no work history is almost always going to hurt you more than it will help.

[–]lilkovakova 24 points25 points  (2 children)

The ones I have encountered are drop down menus and not free text. I’m sure they are sorting applicants based upon the option selected.

[–]eachitpitt 35 points36 points  (1 child)

My dad taught me that when I was 18 applying for fucking subway lmao. I never forgot it.

[–]FactoryCoupe 41 points42 points  (0 children)

"Our range is $9.00 - $9.15"

-.-

[–]OutWithTheNew 12 points13 points  (0 children)

'As per collective bargaining agreement'.

[–]Legirion 94 points95 points  (16 children)

They always forced me to put a number when I say I'd rather not specify. The say they won't offer me anything without a basis to go on. It's happened to me 3 times after reading these "tips" and never worked.

[–]Pudii_Pudii 5 points6 points  (0 children)

The real tip is to know the job market and the salary range for what you’re applying to and the salary of the company through Glassdoor, LinkedIn , etc.

I get people aren’t trying to leave money on the table and sell themselves short but you got but know your worth and go off that these tips and trick might work 20% of the time based on your skills, personality and appearance.

If you know the open position market average pay is between 75-90k and you’re currently making 60k then put 85-92k and see what they offer you.

If they offer to 82k and the job is a match for what you want then great you take it. If you find out later that your company pays higher than market average say 95k for that role then you chalk it up to poor research and due diligence.

You learn what you can in 1-3 years and move on to the next company for more money like you should be anyways until you reach your goal salary.

[–]Delaney2028 28 points29 points  (0 children)

Multiple states made it illegal for employers to ask your current salary, so expect all to start asking your salary expectations upfront. Be prepared.

[–]BluPrince 155 points156 points  (73 children)

Write “flexible depending on range”

[–]NotRobinKelley 113 points114 points  (21 children)

I’ve had some that will not allow text at all, forcing you to put in a range. So annoying!

[–]hebrewchucknorris 84 points85 points  (19 children)

Range: $1-$1,000,000

[–]xorflame 59 points60 points  (16 children)

rejected for being too cocky

[–]Nobody_So_Special 34 points35 points  (14 children)

For asking for $1?

[–]Matrix17 71 points72 points  (11 children)

I tend to find companies will either filter you out electronically for doing that, or filter you out manually because they think you're a jackass. You're better off putting a somewhat low range and then when you actually get to a salary negotiation you explain that what you've learned about the company, position, and responsibilities has changed your position on salary and you're actually looking for X

[–]WailersOnTheMoon 48 points49 points  (3 children)

...making the whole exercise completely pointless to begin with.

[–]Matrix17 31 points32 points  (1 child)

Exactly, but recruiters seemingly haven't caught on to that yet. Or there are enough people just going with it that they dont care

[–]very_anonymous 73 points74 points  (20 children)

Unfortunately, this is a great way to get your application tossed. Most applications specifically say "Do not write negotiable" because otherwise everyone would just write negotiable and if everyone writes negotiable then what is the point?

[–]Furifufu 161 points162 points  (0 children)

if everyone writes negotiable then what is the point?

To negotiate

Got em

[–]Dirxcec 53 points54 points  (4 children)

Fortunately, if they are non-negotiable and you want to discuss the pay possibilities or they reject the idea, you probably figured out the employer is trash to work for and won't work with you later on down the line.

[–]yikes_itsme 31 points32 points  (5 children)

If it's not negotiable then they have a number already. Just print the number and you don't get a bunch of "negotiable" answers, plus every person you interview is willing to take that job at that price. Win/win unless your business is interested in underpaying people and having them leave when they figure it out...

Also, a range or "x but depends on experience" is fine. If you give a candidate the lower end of the range you can explain how they differ from your perfect candidate. Once again, hopefully that reason will not be "we are looking for someone whiter"- which probably is the case pretty often as it is.

[–]Perpetually_isolated 18 points19 points  (1 child)

. Win/win unless your business is interested in underpaying people and having them leave when they figure it out...

You just described every american corporation.

Also, this is why they teach us that it is "impolite" to talk about your pay.

[–]Master_Dogs 9 points10 points  (0 children)

That's the thing, they could have a ton of people self filter themselves out if they just said "we want to pay you $XX".

Saves everyone's time - from the candidate, to the HR people, to the hiring manager and any other people who might interview the candidate.

Instead we all waste time filling out applications and interviewing only to find out oh hey, I'm way outside this places price point and I just waited a few hours of everyone's time.

[–]ChaoticEvilBobRoss 27 points28 points  (1 child)

I agree with your statement and in practice it's true. I also think that it is forcing the applicant into a disadvantageous position of power. A job application process and interview goes both ways. I make it clear that I am interviewing the company as well to check for fit, culture, dedication to diversity, equity, and inclusion, and pay equity. If those are not offered, you should walk. If the company is not willing to enter a discussion, then you've dodged a bullet.

[–]PM_TELETUBBY_PORN 99 points100 points  (28 children)

Or numerically locked, "$1" could work? Where I'm from, we use that as a way to convey price needs negotiations or price needs to be discussed

[–]twotall88 62 points63 points  (26 children)

at worst that looks like a typo and opens up the negotiation :)

[–]ThatOtherGuy_CA 107 points108 points  (10 children)

"I missed 5 zeroes"

[–]EaterOfFood 77 points78 points  (8 children)

Fine. And where would you like the decimal point?

[–]suh-dood 33 points34 points  (7 children)

At the far right

[–]TheMooseOnTheLeft 45 points46 points  (4 children)

Best I can do is far left

[–]suh-dood 21 points22 points  (0 children)

Throw in another moose and we've got a deal!!

[–]l_l_l-illiam 5 points6 points  (2 children)

Yes 10 cents should do just fine Mr Manager

[–]BruceWinchell 33 points34 points  (1 child)

Eh, at worst it seems careless or not serious and counts against you.

[–]richielaw 87 points88 points  (25 children)

Leave it blank or put "negotiable". When they follow-up, use the tips above or in the comments below to get a salary range first.

I've also put in $0 before if it requires a number. If they're that concerned about salary that they won't do a follow-up call with a candidate that is appropriate then you probably don't want to work there... IMO.

[–]Kilen13 22 points23 points  (6 children)

They've even wised up to this method. A lot of the applications I've been filling out have a drop down menu of ranges 10k at a time starting with 20k at the lowest. Their gonna figure out every way to get you to put a low enough number that you'll take.

[–]evasote 38 points39 points  (5 children)

That’s fair. I’ve been on the other side a lot, too. “Do we want one Sr designer or two Jr designers on our team of 6 pods? How do we spread them out?”

You go in hoping for one thing but the candidates that walk in the door change the scenario. Sometimes you just really need one, seasoned, mature leader because you really do have a bunch of 25 year olds at their first office jobs. But you can’t find them. Or the opposite happens.

Then, if a really well qualified person who’s interested, and in the range of what you could offer, well, they may also look like a good fit on a different team then was originally thought, with some shuffling of skills and connections.

Then sometimes you end up reorganizing six months later anyway, or then the budget that last year let us have two new hires is cut because a project required basically a years salary in business trips for five people

[–]SwordTaster 28 points29 points  (9 children)

May be worth googling average salaries for the position in that case and coming up with a range based on that. Like, if the average is £27,000 put £25-30k so that you're not going well under and have space to grow but at the same time if they have the funds to go higher from the off and you have the value to begin with they might pay a little more

[–]Averill21 81 points82 points  (7 children)

If you put 25k-30k you get 25k

[–]tilman2015 46 points47 points  (3 children)

This.

If average is £27k then put £30-35k.

Any employer would add 3k for the right candidate.

[–]TheScaryButler 23 points24 points  (1 child)

*any good employer

[–]semiquantifiable 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Very true, but that helps you filter out the bad ones then.

Main caveat is that not everyone is in a position to be very picky about their job opportunities.

[–]evasote 11 points12 points  (1 child)

Then you ask for 40% more. I got an 80% raise doing this once

[–]TaliesinMerlin 255 points256 points  (5 children)

Like a lot of interview recommendations, there is a strong anecdotal bias here. Answering successfully in this way depends on the industry, company culture, and the individual interviewers. "I'm flexible" could just lead them to offer less or restate the question.

[–]Placeboy0 21 points22 points  (0 children)

i feel like if i said that I wouldn’t have a second interview.

[–]robhenrymusic 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Yep, then get annoyed when you don’t accept at their offered amount. Most industries see an uplift of 10-15% of your current/previous salary, so I’d recommend looking at where your salary sat against industry standard and go from there.

[–]VergeIll 2775 points2776 points  (175 children)

As a recruiter, I just say the pay rate up front. Ain’t nobody have time to waste like that.

[–]USM2014 907 points908 points  (84 children)

I wish jobs would just post the salary range to start with. Some do, some don't. It would make it much easier to decide if applying is even worth my time and save the hiring manager time having to interview people that wouldn't take the job because of the pay to start with.

[–]ThatOtherGuy_CA 504 points505 points  (57 children)

"We are looking for a Senior Engineer willing to also take on a management role but are only willing to pay EIT rates."

Like, thanks for wasting my time.

[–]soonergirrl 291 points292 points  (50 children)

I'm an accountant and I've seen 2 listings recently seeking a CPA and the pay rate is $15-$20/hour. 1) A CPA is not typically an hourly paid position. 2) $40,000 a year is LOW for a CPA. I look right on past those, because that employer obviously doesn't have a clue.

[–]flibbidygibbit 76 points77 points  (37 children)

Aren't there a ton of exams to become a CPA?

[–]soonergirrl 149 points150 points  (36 children)

There are 4 very long, very difficult exams to become a CPA. I think in both instances I've seen, people don't realize that a CPA is an accountant who took a bunch of very long, very difficult tests and what they really want is an accountant without the extra letters. I had a neighbor recently tell me she thought all accountants were CPA's.

[–]acemerald07 19 points20 points  (5 children)

This. The CPA exam is extremely difficult. Often debated whether it is more difficult than the bar exam even.

[–]RocketSurgeon85 8 points9 points  (0 children)

I had a neighbor recently tell me she thought all accountants were CPA's.

I have an family member who is an accountant and he is definitely a Certified Pain in the Ass. I do believe he has his CPA too.

[–]MrBananaStorm 58 points59 points  (12 children)

I recently looked for a job for my gap year. And holy shit is it annoying. The site for vacancies and such I used had a bit required stating what the salary was. 90% of the offers just said "a good salary". The other 10% was "minimum wage" and I have a sneaking suspicion that a good salary would also probably be minimum wage lol.

[–]JeepPilot[🍰] 51 points52 points  (11 children)

"Competitive Salary" is another infuriating classic.

[–]cranp 55 points56 points  (9 children)

I was getting courted for a job and the boss sent me an email pushing their "competitive" salary. I asked him for the number so I would know whether the conversation is worth our time. He told me he didn't want me taking the job just for money and then stopped talking to me. Apparently he didn't actually want to compete.

I consider that a dodged bullet.

[–]JeepPilot[🍰] 38 points39 points  (3 children)

He told me he didn't want me taking the job just for money

That should be the number one red flag right there -- the attitude of "we don't work here for the money, it's the community and family atmosphere that keeps us motivated."

Which also seems to indicate "we don't pay very much."

[–]Worried-Opportunity 16 points17 points  (0 children)

I work in medical cannabis right now and this corporate bullshit is exactly the same at every company. "We don't want the money to be why you're here, but for the love of providing the best quality medicine for our patients".... except this is being said by upper management who clearly aren't worried about money. Good for them, but I want to build a future for myself too, and fuck me, but I dont want to claw my way over the corpses of my comrades to get there.

[–]cranp 14 points15 points  (0 children)

In this case I think he was banking on the prestige of being a worldwide top 10 hospital stoking my ego. That doesn't mean shit to me if I'm underpaid and my boss is an asshole who plays games.

[–]Pokinator 10 points11 points  (0 children)

My favorite poke at this was a comic where the applicant was asked "why are you interested at working for X company" and they responded with "I'm very passionate about not starving to death".

People may have passion/interest in their work, but the primary motivator is to have an income, preferably a comfortable one.

[–]plsdontdoxxme69 9 points10 points  (0 children)

That is ridiculous logic. You did dodge a bullet.

[–]pk-branded 24 points25 points  (1 child)

I usually (not always) message or call the recruiter first, even before applying, to ask the salary range. I've always been told what it is. Then I will apply if it matches what I'm looking for.

Funnily enough I applied for one job, and the recruiter called me and asked what salary range they should be offering. We had a really interesting conversation about different rates in the industry for different levels of experience.

[–]Moonandserpent 7 points8 points  (1 child)

If they did that they’d be stuck paying you that whereas if they don’t they have a chance to low ball you.

[–]Unsmurfme 83 points84 points  (12 children)

And is your pay rate above or below market average?

[–]VergeIll 89 points90 points  (11 children)

Usually around market average

[–]DetailsAlwaysBeWrong 125 points126 points  (10 children)

I've found that employers that pay fairly are way less secretive of it. If an employer is constantly trying to tighten the belt on wage discussions, it's probably because they're twisting someones (or everyones) arm

[–]DM-ME-CONFESSIONS 22 points23 points  (0 children)

I found this to be true as well. It's a breath of fresh air to see job postings with the expected salary range in the ad.

I typically filter my searches with a salary range as I won't leave my current job for less than $x. But I don't want to waste time applying for and interviewing for a job that's budgeted for less than $x. It's just easier for everyone to post that publicly for the most part.

[–]Ermellino 8 points9 points  (3 children)

Here in Switzerland it's so taboo that I really don't know the salary of any coworker I had or have

[–]Shewantstheglock22 24 points25 points  (2 children)

My current employer would not tell me what I would be making until a formal offer was made and it was time to sign an acceptance. They basically have a monopoly on the area and have no incentive to pay well because it's just about the only opportunity to get your start in my field without relocating.

A new system moved in and while not the same job they offer the same opportunity of getting your foot in the door, for $5 more an hour.

My employer says they can't afford more because they're a non-profit religious organization which is hilarious because last year the CEO made like 60million before bonuses.

[–]HatesBeingThatGuy 5 points6 points  (1 child)

non-profit religious organization

last year the CEO made like 60million before bonuses.

Assuming it is a Christian organization... "Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God"

[–]BrewtusMaximus1 25 points26 points  (0 children)

As a recruitee, that's my first question. I know what I'm making, I know what it would take for me to move to a different job - and those are two different numbers. So many early career discussions with recruiters only to find out that the job they were offering was going to pay ~75% of what I was already making.

[–]DoYaWannaWanga 31 points32 points  (8 children)

You're like a unicorn dude.

[–]VergeIll 31 points32 points  (5 children)

For me it’s common sense. Why do the work up front but withhold that information and then have a candidate decline on the backend? It just wastes everyone’s time.

Some jobs don’t have a set pay rate so I try to give them a range. If it’s not what they are looking for, cya!

[–]space_is_noisy 639 points640 points  (57 children)

This doesn't always work, I was lucky in that the guy I was replacing told me the budget beforehand, HR gave me the "we want to know your expectations" spiel. How I got that amount without coughing up payslips: I was freelancing at the time so I said I dont have payslips because of that and my invoices to my clients are confidential. And then gave them a figure I "expected" to make in a pay cycle that coincided with that range. They said fine, a week later I was hired. I still thank my stars 2 years later.

[–]twotall88 236 points237 points  (18 children)

If they force you into making the first move, all you have to do is aim high. The worst they can do is say 'we can't match that, would you take $$$' considering if your talking salary they should have already extended the conditional job offer.

[–]ptoki 256 points257 points  (9 children)

would you take $$$

Not everybody will do that. Some people will just drop the discussion here because they dont want to offend the candidate.

This sort of discussions are filled with generalizations and if you follow any suggestion you may hurt yourself.

There is simply no best rule on how to proceed.

The best advice actually is not about the salary, its about the choice. Be a person who gets the offers not the one who looks for them. Be the one who can choose not the one who needs to fit into existing conditions.

Its not easy but thats the solution to decent salary.

[–]the_little 86 points87 points  (3 children)

This largely depends on your stage of interviewing. Initial phone call? Sure, they might drop you. But if you've passed all the interviews and they're ready to make an offer? You have a lot of leverage. The hiring company has invested a lot of resources in interviewing you and you can negotiate easily 10% or more. Caveat: I work in software.

[–]smoketheevilpipe 19 points20 points  (1 child)

At my old job when I was involved with interviews someone applied for a job that started at 18/hr and he asked for something like 40 an hour.

He was qualified to get it, but like, we were never going to hire him. And I wasn't going to call him back to say yeah no we can maybe do 20, when he could get 40 elsewhere.

Odds are if he took the 20, he'd get another job in a couple months.

[–]craftworkbench 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Yup. I've been seen that exact progression in multiple fields at multiple pay levels. If the ask is way higher than the budget, HR gets nervous that the candidate will leave as soon as they can find someone willing to pay their ask. Or potentially worse, stay but do poorly because they feel wronged.

[–]distressedweedle 11 points12 points  (1 child)

Like the other person said, that's just not true. Especially in times of high unemployment or in entry/lower level jobs there can be enough candidates that the employer just says tough luck and moves on.

It's all a balancing act between how badly you need the job and how badly the employer needs to fill the role.

[–]richielaw 59 points60 points  (8 children)

You should not disclose payslips. That is Personally Identifiable Information. Fuck a company that asks for that.

[–]ptoki 37 points38 points  (4 children)

Fuck a company that asks for that.

Nonono. Its good they ask, you can tell a lot about their internal culture when they pull this.

[–]CorruptionOfTheMind 9 points10 points  (1 child)

Yeah its frustrating to have wasted your time to that point and have to call it quits but its better seeing the red flag upfront than 2 years in, worst case take the job and immediately look for another, but that might not look great on people hiring either

[–]ganymedes01 15 points16 points  (3 children)

wait what, there are companies out there asking for previous pay slips? what for? so they can say they wont pay you more than you previously earned? that’s crazy 😂

[–]osa_ka 10 points11 points  (3 children)

I'm sorry, payslips!?! What fucking job would try to see your payslips from a previous job??

[–]ipappnasei 506 points507 points  (112 children)

Ive never had a company answer me the budget for a position. They always say "no, we want to know how much you want. Just tell us what you want."

[–]maintain_improvement 158 points159 points  (14 children)

Same. I have asked a half dozen or more times and they won’t budge. The spineless pricks want your number.

[–]hebrewchucknorris 194 points195 points  (9 children)

Then you say "if you have to ask, you can't afford me" and disappear with a Cape flourish

[–]pootzilla 64 points65 points  (7 children)

If my cape is being laundered that day, will a smoke screen work?

[–][deleted] 23 points24 points  (2 children)

I'm sure a flash bang will do just as well :)

[–]DenverParanormalLibr 6 points7 points  (0 children)

spineless pricks

No no no. They want to hire spineless pricks who they can bully.

[–]EaterOfFood 156 points157 points  (5 children)

“What I want is to not be underpaid.”

[–]shardikprime 34 points35 points  (2 children)

SHOW ME WHAT YOU GOT! I WANT TO SEE WHAT YOU GOT!

[–]Ashvega03 47 points48 points  (2 children)

Yes the OP is more of a Life Tip than Pro Tip — it is worth a try if you are in the interview however if you get any pushback then go on and show your cards, or not get the job based on a silly ploy.

A better answer is “my understanding is that based on XY and Z in this field, in this region, the pay is between A and B and since I have these skills to add I would expect to be paid at least this amount.” I feel like that is better most of the time than dodging the question. It isn’t like you say I need $75k and they say that’s great we were prepared to pay $100k

What it really comes down to is that entry level you can’t negotiate because you don’t bring enough to the table. Experienced you should know what you currently get paid and what it would take to get you to leave.

[–]kunfushion 59 points60 points  (37 children)

It’s because they want to underpay you if possible...

[–]twotall88 129 points130 points  (14 children)

Never be the first one to offer a number in a negotiation :)

If they absolutely insist on you providing the first number then aim high because they are trying to back you into a lower rate.

[–]obvilious 23 points24 points  (2 children)

Yes and no. Sometimes it’s better to anchor the negotiations by speaking first.

[–]Iredditfromwork 12 points13 points  (0 children)

‘Anchoring’ a conversation is a thing.

[–]xero_art 235 points236 points  (8 children)

The real trick is to catfish someone else who works there with a similar position and ask them how much they make and how long they've been working there then extrapolate from that.

[–]2001ASpaceOatmeal 59 points60 points  (0 children)

I think I saw this one in a book called, “Tips and Tricks: Landing The Job You Want”

[–]ImperiousMage 55 points56 points  (2 children)

This is also what websites that report average salary earnings are for. Take a look at their data, compare it to your experience, and come up with a number you feel is fair +~5K/year. This makes your salary expectation reasonable, if a little high, and you can follow up with "I am open to some negotiation".

By giving a slightly high number you have planted the negotiation around your number. If you're lucky, they may simply accept the offer since your number wasn't unreasonable.

[–]VergeIll 888 points889 points  (43 children)

As a recruiter, chances are if they don’t tell you the pay up front, it pays shit.

[–]pootzilla 175 points176 points  (22 children)

If I'm looking at job postings and there isn't a salary/pay listed, I don't even bother.

[–]Matrix17 59 points60 points  (14 children)

Most jobs tend to be that way though..

[–]thebross10 62 points63 points  (6 children)

And most jobs are shit

[–]conanomatic 20 points21 points  (5 children)

Beats being unemployed!

[–]ProfessorHufnagel 24 points25 points  (2 children)

I did the math and by me quitting my last job (which paid so little), selling my car and being home to watch my daughter instead of putting her in day care, my family actually saves money compared to when I was working.

[–]NugBlazer 31 points32 points  (1 child)

Don’t blame ya one bit, probably just saving yourself a lot of hassle in the long run

[–]Flarisu 15 points16 points  (1 child)

Exactly. In any set of negotiations, not just labour contacts, the information you are not told can be more valuable than the information you are.

[–]hostilecarrot 15 points16 points  (5 children)

With a caveat that it is definitely contingent upon field of employment. Particularly when expected salary is $75k+, both sides are going to be trying to negotiate what is best for them.

[–]VergeIll 9 points10 points  (2 children)

Yep. Pretty much. But generally we are working within a range. If we find a perfect fit we don’t mind negotiating past what we normally pay. A good candidate is a good candidate, and above all what attracts good candidates is $$$

[–]breezyfye 146 points147 points  (10 children)

I wish there was a law that made jobs explicitly state their pay/salary and the needed working hours in job description before you even click apply

[–]chukomoo 5 points6 points  (4 children)

It does not work because positions scale based on work experience and other factors.

[–]richielaw 258 points259 points  (39 children)

This works!

Also, if they demand salary requirements, you can say, "I'm sorry, I'm not comfortable providing a salary requirement at this time as I'd like to get more information regarding the role and its responsibilities. Are you able to disclose a salary range?"

Also, you should know that in California, Illinois and New York employers are prohibited from asking your salary history. This has worked for me even when working remotely.

[–]Not_gonnahappen37 160 points161 points  (10 children)

They have to give you a range in Colorado now!

Even job postings have to have a range, new Colo law!!

[–]vrendy42 37 points38 points  (6 children)

Employers are getting around this by not hiring Colorado residents, or labeling the job as being performed 100% outside of Colorado. Colorado residents are actually losing job opportunities until a lot of other states get on board and require the same.

[–]alexrobinhood 17 points18 points  (0 children)

labeling the job as being performed 100% outside of Colorado.

Omg I just saw a job opening yesterday with this line and was wondering what it was for!

[–]waelgifru 9 points10 points  (1 child)

Do you ever just marvel at the lengths to which corporations go to squeeze out just a little more profit at the expense of employee earnings?

[–]bogberry_pi 49 points50 points  (12 children)

It doesn't always work... The salary question came up in one interview, so I told them I had recently been promoted and I was looking to make about the same as my current position. They followed up afterwards asking for a number, so I tried the "I would need to know more about the position" line, and they just asked me what specific questions I had that hadn't been covered in the interview. They weren't budging, so I eventually told them my current salary and said I'd be looking for about $5k more due to loss of extremely good healthcare and 401k benefits. Then they withdrew their offer and told me I was $25k over the top of their range. If they had just told me up front, it would have saved everyone a lot of time.

[–]vivekisprogressive 14 points15 points  (0 children)

Jesus, this happened to me. I gave a number at the start of the process and went through the whole song and dance and then they offered me the same I was making at my current job. I literally laughed at the hiring manager when I got the offer.

[–]cuddlewench 6 points7 points  (2 children)

Well, they're out a solid candidate they can't afford and you're in a position with great healthcare and 401k benefits, in which you were recently promoted. So the only losers are the hiring guys. Looks like it worked, just wasted some time which they were happy to do anyway.

[–]Softicemullion 13 points14 points  (3 children)

Massachusetts as well as of two years ago.

[–]rngohel 113 points114 points  (21 children)

I have an interview that's really important in 2.5 hours. This came at the perfect time! Wish me luck!!!!

[–]ptoki 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Good luck!

[–]rngohel 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Yalls are great! Thank you so much! I'll keep you all posted.

[–]kampamaneetti 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Good luck!

[–]klawehtgod 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Remind me! 3 hours

[–]Sheerimirza 4 points5 points  (0 children)

All the best !

[–]BecomeABenefit 107 points108 points  (8 children)

Do your research before you get to this point in the interview. Know what the industry standard is in your area for the job duties listed. Even if they refuse to give you a range, you'll be able to honestly answer what you expect. Don't view it as "me vs them" view it as "we need to be on the same page or we're both wasting our time".

I tell recruiters my required salary range within the first few minutes of the discussion. If they can't meet it, we're both better off just going our separate ways immediately.

" I expect this job to be paying between $75k and $95k per year based on the job description and requirements. I would need towards the higher end of that range."

[–]w1n5t0nM1k3y 56 points57 points  (3 children)

Which is why they should just publish the salary range with the job posting so that nobody's time is wasted.

[–]sad_physicist8 25 points26 points  (0 children)

but you can't control others so better to be prepared from your end

[–]en_guete 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Really you should know what you are applying for when you apply. Good candidates know at least what the general range is. It might still differ for smaller/larger companies, you can still negotiate performance based extras etc.

But if you are generally unaware of what is reasonable it reflects poorly on you as a candidate. It's the ebay equivalent of "tell me how low you can go"

[–]optimus314159 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Yup, this is what I do, too.

I tell the recruiter, "I'm currently earning $x at Company A. I would be willing to switch jobs if it's a good fit and if it comes with a decent pay raise over what I'm currently making. Is that something this potential job can provide?"

There's no reason for me to leave a good job for another if it is simply a lateral move. There's also no reason to waste everyone's time in interviews if they aren't even willing to pay what it takes to hire me.

[–]micmeup 108 points109 points  (16 children)

This is one of the many reasons I love working in the public sector. Pay ranges are public record and can be found with about one minute on Google.

[–]twotall88 53 points54 points  (15 children)

At least in the USA for any advanced federal position, public sector pay sucks. A GS-12-1 in the Washington-Baltimore locality pay rate makes $86,335/year. To be hired in as a GS-12 requires you have a doctoral degree and like 3 years experience or a master's degree and like 5 years experience, or a bachelor's degree and 7 years experience depending on what agency you go into.

With a Bachelor's Degree and 7 years experience you can easily command $120k with comparable benefits in the private sector contracted to working for the Feds. It's not even close in pay.

There's a Parting Thoughts type blog where I used to work in public sector and every other entry is 'I'm retiring' and "I'm leaving for a better work location (out of the Maryland/Washington area) and 20-50% more pay."

[–]Gwenavere 11 points12 points  (3 children)

While this is certainly true, public sector often has better benefits packages and job security. I did most of my summer internships during undergrad and whatnot with state agencies and a lot of my coworkers understood they were earning less, but had the security of good healthcare, a state public employees retirement fund with 20 year service to fully vest, etc. If your goal isn’t to live extravagantly, it’s a fair enough choice to make. Now as a late 20something with a masters in a field that will likely lead me public sector eventually, my approach has been to go private and drive up my salary and experience as much as possible now so I can make the transition while I still have 20-25 years to retirement, but can enter at a higher level

I will also add that one real challenge here is the public perception of massively increasing public sector salaries. It isn’t fair, but most people who don’t have connections to public sector employment or live in the DC area don’t understand why a job paying nearly 6 figures when they might be making half that would be a problem. It’s a lesser degree of the same issue people have with congressional pay—yeah, if you expect someone to maintain housing in two places including one of the priciest property markets in the country and move back and forth between them several times a month, you have to pay them a lot to make that feasible...

[–]twotall88 5 points6 points  (0 children)

At least federally, you only need 5 years service to qualify for retirement benefits. They are known as 'golden parachutes' because they run up their retirement funds in the private sector, take their 'high three' pension from feds and run away with their federal health benefits for retirement.

Edit: my big issue with congressional pay is the fact that they vote and set their own pay and benefits. That shit needs to go somewhere else. No one should arbitrarily set their own pay and they shouldn't get health benefits for life just because they managed to get enough people to vote for them.

[–]ExoticCommunication 42 points43 points  (6 children)

It's such a joke that federal contractors make more money than federal employees. Like, the whole point of contracting is to save the taxpayers money and instead it's become a giant money siphon.

[–]twotall88 26 points27 points  (2 children)

You've got that backwards. It is a "half-dozen" to some and "6" to another.

It costs the federal government roughly the same to pay for a federal contractor when compared to a federal employee. Source: I worked acquisition for a federal agency for 7 years before I went private.

The difference is with a contractor of average labor category (i.e. the first 3 levels and not advanced Subject Matter Expert type LCATs) you pay an hourly rate that is similar to the fully loaded FTE for an employee. You either pay it up front or on the back end with overhead (HR, retirement, etc.) the only thing that gets you a little bit on federal contractors is you have to pay profit or it's not worth the company's time and that isn't even all that much.

[–]Gwenavere 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Problem is it’s a lot easier to accept a contract bid with higher salaries after a competitive process than it is to sell a large-scale pay increase for public sector workers.

[–]old_skul 19 points20 points  (0 children)

A better LTP would be to go to glassdoor.com or salary.com and look up what others in that role make at that company. It's super easy to determine what the range is for a particular position. No need to play games like this LPT suggests (and besides, most recruiters ask right out of the gate what your salary expectation is).

[–]hayflicklimit 74 points75 points  (5 children)

Can we just mandate that salary is disclosed by the employer up front so job seekers don’t waste their time?

[–]Thisoneissfwihope 22 points23 points  (2 children)

If only - the jobs I go for don't have a tight range in salary for the the role.

I've seen the same job title have a salary range of £27k - £85k depending on the business. It's a total lottery where you might end up.

[–]Gwenavere 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Sure, but this might force them to narrow that. Say they’re looking for an experienced Data Analyst who has worked with xyz before, they can advertise that position with a range suited to the role, and advertise another Data Analyst position where they’re maybe looking for a recent uni grad with limited experience with a range suited to that role. The titles may be the same, but the posted range would quickly help you identify that you don’t even want to bother applying to the one versus the other.

[–]anarchy45 23 points24 points  (3 children)

Aim high. Give yourself some bargaining room. I say, "I'm targetting $xxxxxx but benefits and family time are very important to me, so that's negotiable". If their benefits package is anything less than stellar, be like "I need more $$ in my salary". If youre in tech and Glassdoor says the average salary for a job is $100k, you should be asking for at least $115-120k.

If a company really wants to hire you, they will negotiate with you and not just decline you outright, as long as you arent asking for something totally ridiculous.

[–]Ricky_5panish 22 points23 points  (1 child)

To add, most interviews are now 2 or 3 parts now. Never give up the number during the first interview, just say you’re flexible and willing to discuss if you are the right fit.

[–]Tripdok 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Depends on your interviewer, I had tried that, they laughed and said that we weren't at the negotiation phase yet, I never heard back from them

[–]SinnamonSativa666 43 points44 points  (0 children)

This! NEVER be afraid to try gain insight. Hidden salaries have only been acceptable because people are afraid to ask, AND if the company gets pissed at you asking how much you will earn working for them, then they are not worth your time!

[–]drew_almighty21 20 points21 points  (1 child)

Had a very friendly interview go way south after I gave my current salary information. Things came to a grinding halt as they could not meet my expectations. The crazy thing is, this job actually had more responsibilities than my current job, but they wanted to pay $30-40 thousand less per year. Gee, if only they had put a salary range in the listing so I could have saved us all a lot of trouble...

[–]joocycunt 7 points8 points  (2 children)

I led over a thousand job interviews and I never accepted "i'm flexible" for an answer. I'm not saying you're wrong, but it's not a "trick" that works very well in this economy and market. Plus, you have headhunters who works for their clients and they WILL get a number out of you 99,9% of the time. It's the new reality, and no, even if you lowball yourself, we don't capitalize on that to save money, we want people to be compensated for what they are worth and most of all, happy with their package.

[–]iloveuranus 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I've spent fifteen years on both sides of the table and I agree. I don't like this LPT at all. If you're competing with a lot of candidates (e.g. unskilled labour), HR won't have a very high tolerance for games like that.

And if you're highly skilled, saying I'm flexible and letting the employer set the range is a huge mistake! Take the opportunity and put your stake in the ground. Know exactly how much a person with your experience is likely to earn, then aim ten or twenty percent higher.

[–]HarlodsGazebo 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Hahahaha $65k and $70k ಥ_ಥ cries in under qualified

[–]Tlr321 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I just started a new job this week. Last week at the interview I told them I would be fine with $15 an hour. Imagine my surprise when they came back with $28 an hour as my starting salary. Seems like a good company so far

[–]samanime 15 points16 points  (0 children)

This is good advice, though also be aware that if the company is large enough or you are good enough, you can frequently get them to go above their budgeted range if they like you enough, by a bit.

If you're looking for $100k and they say $60k though, it's probably time to move on. You're unlikely to close that gap.

[–]turtleturtletown 10 points11 points  (1 child)

As someone who gets 5-10 recruiters reaching out every week, why skirt around the question? I just flat out ask so neither of our times are wasted. Usually they will give you a range pretty quickly.

[–]WestFast 10 points11 points  (1 child)

Going too high isn’t a risk in my opinion as long as it’s reasonable and within market and professional Experience value.

If they flip out then you know they were only looking to underpay and would be a trash employer anyhow.